The Girl of Many Crowns: D.H. Morris Makes History Personal

Author and researcher D. H. Morris reveals the gripping true story behind her historical novel The Girl of Many Crowns, following Princess Judith of Francia and Baldwin “Iron Arm.” We dig into how Deborah turned medieval annals, songs, and court records into a vivid, faith-infused saga of love, power, and defiance—plus the surprising family link that started it all. If you love stories where history breathes and the stakes are royal, this one’s for you. 

Sponsored by Daniel McGhee & the Victory Team 

Guest Bio:  

D. H. (Deborah) Morris is a playwright, world traveler, and historical-fiction author whose research spans medieval Latin sources and English scholarship. After tracing her own genealogy, she uncovered the real saga of Princess Judith of Francia and Baldwin Iron Arm, inspiring her debut novel The Girl of Many Crowns. A former theater professional and devoted researcher, Morris blends scholarly rigor with dramatic storytelling—and donates a portion of her book’s proceeds to anti-trafficking efforts.  

Main Topics: 

·         How a genealogy puzzle led Deborah to Princess Judith & Baldwin Iron Arm. 

·         Turning dense medieval sources into living scenes (annals, riddles, liturgy, songs). 

·         Historical fiction vs. strict history: staying faithful while filling the gaps. 

·         Judith’s early marriages, agency, and defiance in a world of kings and councils. 

·         Vikings, ransoms, and realpolitik: how raids, slavery, and silver shaped the plot. 

·         Writing the audiobook herself—acting craft, character voice, and production. 

·         Prequel in progress: Empress Judith, Charlemagne’s court, and civil war stakes. 

·         Why she donates proceeds to OUR/Operation Underground Railroad.  

Resources mentioned: 

·         The Girl of Many Crowns novel

·         Princess Judith of Francia; Baldwin (Iron Arm); Alfred the Great; Charlemagne; Louis the Pious; Hincmar of Reims; Aachen. 

·         Annals of St. Bertin (used as a year-by-year scaffold). 

·         TV/Books referenced: Vikings (History), The Last Kingdom / Bernard Cornwell. 

·         Fiverr (for her book trailer). 

·         OUR / Operation Underground Railroad and the film Sound of Freedom (discussed). 

·         New Classic Publishing (her imprint). 

·         Episode Sponsor: Daniel McGhee & the Victory Team

·         Supporter: Real Life Prosthetics

·         Supporter: Full Circle Boards

·         Supporter: Sincerely Sawyer Photography 

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Transcript

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Wendy & Rich 0:00
Hey, everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning 10 this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared a episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we've shared laughs, tears, and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next 10 years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios Harford County Living Presence conversations with Rich Bennett. 

No no no, it's

Rich Bennett 1:00
What happens when a descendant of a medieval queen and a legendary knight stumbles upon their hidden story and then brings it roaring back to life? Today's guest D. H. Morris is more than a writer. She's a historian at heart, a world traveler, a playwright, and a geological detective. From San Diego to Kansas City and from the theater stage to the pages of history. Deborah has lived on four continents, raised four children, and you're not going to believe this, is now a proud grandmother of 11. But it was while Tracin, her family, roots as she uncovered the gripping true story of Princess Judith of Francia and Baldwin Iron Arm. A story that defied kings, broke societal norms and helped shape European history. Her novel, The Grove Many Crounds, is more than historical fiction. It's a vivid tapestry of love, power, rebellion, and courage. All painstakingly researched and brought to life with the heart of a storyteller and the mind of a scholar. So if you're fascinated by stories that connect the past to the present, stories that teach, inspire, and challenge, you'll want to hear how Deborah Morris, D. H. Morris, is making history personal and above all else unforgettable. How you doing Deborah? 

Deborah Morris 2:33
I'm doing great. 

Rich Bennett 2:35
Ah, 

Deborah Morris 2:35
you're having me 

Rich Bennett 2:36
Oh 

Deborah Morris 2:36
rich. 

Rich Bennett 2:36
my, I love talking to people that are history buffs because I just love learning and the first time I had an author on that route, a historical fiction, which I didn't historical fiction was a thing. I thought it was either history or fiction. But she made a good point and said that because a lot of the stuff, she wrote a book about her great, great, great, I forget how many great grandmother, who was a Cherokee Indian, but she said because a lot of this stuff wasn't documented, it could not be labeled as a true history book, which made it historical fiction. I was like, well I'm gonna learn a lot more from these historical fiction books and I enjoy reading them better. Before we get into the book, what actually made you start writing historical fiction? 

Deborah Morris 3:31
Well, actually when I discovered the story of Judith and Balboon, Iron Arm, I initially thought it was a mistake on my genealogy chart, 

Rich Bennett 3:42
Oh. 

Deborah Morris 3:42
which I had inherited from my aunt, and she kind of was hoping that I would become the new genealogists for the new generation. 

Rich Bennett 3:54
Okay. 

Deborah Morris 3:54
But I saw Judith's name appearing three times in my family and I thought, either everybody who had a daughter born that year 

Rich Bennett 4:08
named 

Deborah Morris 4:09
her Judith or there's something wrong. And so I started researching it to see if this was 

the same person 

Rich Bennett 4:21
and indeed it was the same person. Oh wow. 

Deborah Morris 4:22
And so I was fascinated by her story and the more I researched, the more I wanted my daughters and my granddaughters to know of her courage. And then during COVID, actually I kind of related it orally. 

Rich Bennett 4:46
Okay. 

Deborah Morris 4:46
I had a lot of research assembled, but during COVID, she just kept nagging at me. I think she wanted her story 

Rich Bennett 4:58
told. Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 4:59
And so I finished doing the research. My husband dug out all this old research and said, you still have some of this. 

Rich Bennett 5:09
Wow. 

Deborah Morris 5:09
.. and I just uh, finished the research, and it was actually about 25% larger than the book is now, because I wrote it more like a history book. 

Rich Bennett 5:25
OK! 

Deborah Morris 5:26
got notes in there, and, and uh, three pages of annotations of, from other sources. 

Rich Bennett 5:35
mm-hmm, 

Deborah Morris 5:35
And then, I approached, originally approached, a traditional um, publisher. 

Rich Bennett 5:44
Right. 

Deborah Morris 5:45
And you said, the first thing they want to know is, two or three books, that this book is like, that has been published within the last year or two. 

Rich Bennett 5:57
Uh, in the last year or two? 

Deborah Morris 6:00
Yes, they only want, they want to publish things that have been very popular within the last year or two, but- 

Rich Bennett 6:08
Wow! 

Deborah Morris 6:09
I could not think of another book within the last year or two, 

Rich Bennett 6:14
ehm, 

Deborah Morris 6:15
that was like this book, and they said, well, too many characters, too involved, of, very complex, and it's not what we're looking for right now. So, I put it on the shelf, and then, after a couple of years, I just thought, if I want somebody to read this, I need to make it sound more like a novel. 

Rich Bennett 6:40
Mm-hmm. 

Deborah Morris 6:41
And take out every bit of fact that is not necessary for the reader to know, to understand the journey that Judith and Baldwin go on. 

Rich Bennett 6:53
And I guess also with that, you could even do a sequel, 

Deborah Morris 6:58
right? I- if I had the problem is, this book is based on fact. 

Rich Bennett 7:04
Right. 

Deborah Morris 7:05
And- and once women stopped doing things that were outrageous, the chronicler stopped writing about them. 

Rich Bennett 7:17
Oh. 

Deborah Morris 7:18
So, we do know that Judith's son, Judith and Baldwin's son, Baldwin II, married Alfred's daughter. Alfred, the one who was her step- son, 

Rich Bennett 7:36
Okay. 

Deborah Morris 7:36
Alfred the Great. We know that, we know that they had 

established trade west six, 

Rich Bennett 7:46
between 

Deborah Morris 7:47
and between Flanders. 

Rich Bennett 7:51
Wow. 

Deborah Morris 7:52
We don't have a lot of detail about events that happened. We know she lost her first child. He passed away, she had named him after her father, Charles. So, at the end of the book, you'll see an afterward, and it goes into each of the characters and tries to flesh out their journey for you of what happened to them after the book ends. 

Rich Bennett 8:20
How long did the research take for this? 

Deborah Morris 8:23
Um, several, it probably took the research, probably during COVID took a year to flesh out all the research. 

Rich Bennett 8:33
Wow. 

Deborah Morris 8:33
I love doing 

Rich Bennett 8:35
research. That's pretty fast. That's pretty good, especially going that far back. 

Deborah Morris 8:40
Yes. I was surprised though at how many records there were. 

Rich Bennett 8:45
Really? 

Deborah Morris 8:46
There are a lot of records, unfortunately, most are in Latin, but a lot of them have been translated into German, which I speak, 

Rich Bennett 8:55
Oh! 

Deborah Morris 8:55
or English. And so the English scholars, the medieval English scholars in England, have done a remarkable job of chronicling everything about Judas father, Charles the Pope. So, every law that I have passed, every place that they went is I got directly from the annals or from the research that was done by medieval scholars. 

Rich Bennett 9:29
And you read that online? Well, I guess you had to because it was during 

Deborah Morris 9:34
A 

Rich Bennett 9:34
COVID. 

Deborah Morris 9:34
lot of it you can find online, but then you had, I had some of the research I had to, I could find the name of a book. 

Rich Bennett 9:44
Right. 

Deborah Morris 9:45
And I wanted that book before I went any further 

Rich Bennett 9:49
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 9:49
in the writing because it would fill in an important gap. And so I would have to get it through, and usually they're out of print, if you I could order off Amazon, but some of them I would order through interlibrary loan and then you wait for because they're in some specialty collection in some university, and they'll send it to you and then you can read it. I am, you talked about a sequel. I am in the process of writing a Prequel. 

Rich Bennett 10:30
Oh, 

Deborah Morris 10:30
Judith's 

Rich Bennett 10:30
oh! 

Deborah Morris 10:32
grandmother, she was named for her grandmother, Judith, who was the Empress, um, daughter-in-law of Charlemagne. 

Rich Bennett 10:43
Really? 

Deborah Morris 10:43
So her husband, Louie the Pius, she, Judith was his second wife. 

Rich Bennett 10:51
Wow. 

Deborah Morris 10:52
And it's a very interesting story because it starts out almost like a Cinderella 

Rich Bennett 11:00
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 11:00
story. Whereas she's the second wife, he's a widower, he's moping, his courteers insist that he marry again, so they have a bride show and they stand out through all the Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, and they have all the nobles with eligible daughters bring them to Aachen or Eilash Pal, which was his headquarters and his main palace, and they did a bride show. And Judith was chosen for her beauty, her intellect, and her musical ability, they said. And so this, everything is fine until, well, she has three step-sons, grown step-sons from, um, Louie the Pius' first marriage, and everything's fine until she has a baby. They're afraid it's going to be a boy, and this is going to interfere with what they're going to get. They're part of the kingdom, but it's a girl. And then she has another child, and it is a boy and it starts a civil war, and it's a rather touch-and-go situation for her to protect her son, Charles, and battle for him to receive part of the kingdom, as his inheritance. And so that, Charles, is the father of the Judith in the girl of many crowns. 

Rich Bennett 12:45
Wow, all right, so with Judith, the girl of many crowns, that one. 

Deborah Morris 12:53
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 12:54
How did she come about meeting Baldwin Iron Arm and two-part question? 

The name Baldwin Iron Arm. How did he get that? I love it. 

Deborah Morris 13:07
Well, we know that his name was Baldwin, 

Rich Bennett 13:12
Right. 

Deborah Morris 13:13
and the Iron Arm. There's not always an agreement from historians as to when it was attached to him. 

Rich Bennett 13:22
Mm-hmm. 

Deborah Morris 13:22
Some say it was attached at a very young age because he was such a valiant warrior from the very beginning, just had 

Rich Bennett 13:29
Right. 

Deborah Morris 13:29
a natural gift for it. And others say, "Well, it was attached later, but we don't know when." So I had to pick one, and that's what the historical fiction author does is they take the true events, hopefully, depending on how faithful they want to 

Rich Bennett 13:51
Right. 

Deborah Morris 13:51
be. And they fill in the gaps or make choices from the various historians, because historians don't always agree on everything. 

Rich Bennett 14:02
Mm-hmm. 

Deborah Morris 14:03
So, I have him, and we do know that he was the companion of Judith's younger brother, Louis the stammerer. 

Rich Bennett 14:14
Oh. 

Deborah Morris 14:15
So, I have, I start the book with Baldwin coming to the court to serve King Charles, and he is placed in a position of companion, mentor, to Louis the stammer. He's only nine years old at the time, but is about to be made King of Newstria. 

Rich Bennett 14:45
Wow. 

Deborah Morris 14:46
And the province of Newstria within King Charles' realm. 

Rich Bennett 14:50
Right. 

Deborah Morris 14:51
And he was very shy and had the stammer, and his father isn't pleased with that. His father was always disappointed with Louis, because he didn't match up to what, you know, 

Rich Bennett 15:06
idea. 

Deborah Morris 15:06
his 

Rich Bennett 15:07
Right. 

Deborah Morris 15:08
And so, since Baldwin was his companion, I just start off the book with him as being his companion, and this is how Judith and Baldwin meet. And, of course, they have a little bit of a rocky start, but they become friends, but then she is at 12, as soon as she turns 12, she's married off to the widower, the aging widower, King alcohol of 

Rich Bennett 15:40
Oh, 

Deborah Morris 15:40
West-- 

Rich Bennett 15:41
yes. Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 15:42
And she becomes the first consecrated queen by the church. 

Rich Bennett 15:49
She was only twelve? 

Deborah Morris 15:50
She was only twelve. But they had to be twelve to be married. And uhm, she then, after a year and a half, she becomes widowed herself. And she, ehm, is enters a second marriage, this time with Atholub's oldest living son, who is twenty-four, and she's thirteen, fourteen. 

Wow. We don't know exactly what happened in that marriage, but whatever it was, it was something that gave her a spine and she came back to Francia, and put her foot down and said, 'I'm not marrying the gift', which was unheard of, which is why she gets written about, by the chroniclers. 

Rich Bennett 16:49
Wow. 

Deborah Morris 16:52
So I feel in the gaps, as best I can, with all the events that were going on, the wars that happened, the assassinations that happened, the plots that happened, uhm, 

Rich Bennett 17:04
and there were a lot back then too. 

Deborah Morris 17:07
A lot. A lot of politics. 

Rich Bennett 17:10
Yes. 

Deborah Morris 17:12
Yes. A lot of Vikings. 

Rich Bennett 17:14
That, it's funny because when you, when you mentioned that, and I, I just, a couple of months ago, I finished, I don't know if you saw it, but on the History Channel, they had the shoe Vikings. So I finished watching that, and now I'm watching the last Kingdom. Have you, 

Deborah Morris 17:31
uh huh, 

Rich Bennett 17:32
which describes a lot what you're talking about, but it just sucks you right in, and oh, when's yours going to become a show? 

Deborah Morris 17:44
(laughs) I actually had one of my readers as she was so sweet, she said to me, 'I want this book to become a movie that I can show over and over again to my daughters and granddaughters, but the interesting thing is, so you would think that it's only about Judith, I started from that 

Rich Bennett 18:09
perspective, 

Deborah Morris 18:10
I was related to her, 

Rich Bennett 18:12
but yeah. 

Deborah Morris 18:12
but it's interesting because when my husband and my son read the manuscript, they said, "This is not really Judith's story, this is Baldwin's story." Well, it starts with Baldwin. 

Rich Bennett 18:25
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 18:26
And we follow his path and Judith's path in parallel because they're very different. She's shipped off to England, and he is staying as companion and following wherever her younger brother Louie goes and protecting him and mentoring him and becoming a count in his own right, and partaking in the wars and the Viking encounters and all of that. And so we get to see both sides, what's going on, and then when she comes back, and her father says, "Well, if you're not going to marry again, then I'm going to imprison you in this castle until you do agree to marry again." And she's fine. I'm not going to do it. So we see through all of her adversity. 

Rich Bennett 19:25
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 19:25
She grows into a woman from being a pawn of several kings to be coming a woman in her own right, who is not willing to compromise on her standards and find strength in her fate. 

Rich Bennett 19:41
Yes. 

Deborah Morris 19:42
And faith was a huge thing 

Rich Bennett 19:44
then. 

Deborah Morris 19:44
back 

Rich Bennett 19:44
Oh yeah. 

Deborah Morris 19:46
I was not raised Catholic, so I had to do research on not just what the Catholic celebrations said. But what they were in the next century because they have changed over time. And so I was able to find actual 

accounts of like an Easter celebration in Francia in the early part of the ninth century, including the songs, including "no". And I just thought, "This is fantastic. It's going in the book." So if I found riddles that were from the ninth century, they went in the book. If I found songs from the ninth century, I found a way to use them in the book. 

Rich Bennett 20:42
Oh Deborah, you know what you need for this? You somehow or another, if you could put together a soundtrack of the music from back then. 

Deborah Morris 20:52
I wish I knew the music, the tunes that went to the songs. 

Rich Bennett 20:57
Yeah. I mean... I-I'm the type to wear, when I'm reading a book I love to listen to, of course, mainly instrumental music in the background. But when there's something that there's music that can actually go along with the book, it just adds to it. Even more. 

OK, when's the movie or the TV show coming out? Because 

Deborah Morris 21:32
it's- [laughter] 

Rich Bennett 21:33
It's-it's that good. Actually, ha, I'm gonna put you on a spot here. OK, so. If-no, not-I'm not saying if. When it does become a TV show or a movie, who would play Judith and who would play Baldwin? Who would you like to see play him? 

Deborah Morris 21:53
I don't know. If-you know, I'm old enough to remember. 

Rich Bennett 21:58
The good actors like me. I mean, not the-I-I don't mean I'm a good actor. I mean, I remember the good actors. 

Deborah Morris 22:04
Yes, and I'm old enough to remember that when they made a version of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, they had an Actually- actual search for who would play Romeo and Juliet. And they discovered fresh faces. But I tell you who I see as Applewolf is-now you ask me-and-I-uh-uh-uh. 

Rich Bennett 22:35
[laughter] Did they win out of your head? I-it doesn't-hey, don't worry, 

Deborah Morris 22:38
Very 

Rich Bennett 22:38
don't- 

Deborah Morris 22:38
hard. 

Rich Bennett 22:39
Who's-oh, 

Deborah Morris 22:40
oh. Oh, Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson. He would be a perfect- 

Rich Bennett 22:44
Yeah, yeah. 

Deborah Morris 22:45
I think. 

Rich Bennett 22:47
Yeah, 

Deborah Morris 22:47
at least 

Rich Bennett 22:47
I could 

Deborah Morris 22:49
be- I- 

Rich Bennett 22:51
I could be a hard one 

Deborah Morris 22:52
figure 

Rich Bennett 22:52
to 

Deborah Morris 22:53
it out. I think it might have to be a fresh face. 

Rich Bennett 23:00
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 23:03
And maybe a French girl with a French 

Rich Bennett 23:06
accent. Oh, well, yeah. I mean, that would make sense to me. 

Deborah Morris 23:11
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 23:11
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Deborah Morris 24:22
That's a difficult one because I 

Rich Bennett 24:25
there's a lot, right? 

Deborah Morris 24:26
There was a lot. And I had no idea what the ninth century was like and I thought I can't. I'm not writing this 'til I know. So everything surprised. And I actually took something called the annals of St. Burton, which were the annals kept by the months during the ninth century in the abbey of St. Burton, which was part of King Charles's realm. And I followed seven years in those annals and I used the annals year by year as the outline for what I was going to write about next. And I would, I purposefully, in some ways, decided not to really delve into the next year until I fully fleshed out the year that it was before me. And so then I would go to my husband and I'd say, "You wouldn't believe what happened in this next year. You're not going to believe it." So-and-so was assassinated. And he was assassinated by this person. And then, you know, I mean, it was just... It was a constant light and a constant set of revelations and surprises. And I loved it. I could not believe how much went on at 

Rich Bennett 25:53
time. 

Deborah Morris 25:53
that 

Rich Bennett 25:53
Yeah. Is this your first book? 

Deborah Morris 25:58
This is my first novel. It's 

Rich Bennett 26:00
Okay. 

Deborah Morris 26:00
my debut novel. 

Rich Bennett 26:02
Okay. And when was it released? 

Deborah Morris 26:04
It was released last fall. 

Rich Bennett 26:06
Last fall. And-you have-no, and technically-because the publishing company is your publishing company, right? 

Deborah Morris 26:15
It's one that my husband and I started. 

Rich Bennett 26:17
Okay, so I have to ask you this and those in some those of you that are listening that are inspiring authors Go to new classic publishing calm Because Debra's got something on there, which I think every author should do explain to trailer to us because I think that's very important for authors to do 

Deborah Morris 26:36
Say that again 

Rich Bennett 26:37
the trailer. Oh 

Deborah Morris 26:39
The trailer. Yes, um, I put I had a trailer made The girl of many crowns just kind of with your elevator 

Rich Bennett 26:53
type 

Deborah Morris 26:53
pitch 

Rich Bennett 26:54
mm-hmm 

Deborah Morris 26:54
trying to give it a very short summary 

It's also on YouTube if you look up the girl of many 

Rich Bennett 27:01
can 

Deborah Morris 27:01
crown you see that and I found that 

It's fun to see it in 

Rich Bennett 27:11
it is yes 

Deborah Morris 27:13
And it captured it very well. It was not 

very expensive 

Rich Bennett 27:21
Mm-hmm 

Deborah Morris 27:21
to create believe it or not I thought it looked amazing, but I found Someone on a website called Fiverr. 

Rich Bennett 27:32
Yes 

Deborah Morris 27:32
No, if you know Fiverr 

Rich Bennett 27:33
mm-hmm 

Deborah Morris 27:34
They they're people who do gigs in publishing and all printing and all kinds of areas and Someone who does trailers like that and she was phenomenal 

Rich Bennett 27:51
It 

Deborah Morris 27:52
just she I worked with her and she asked me what it should look like with the characters look like and She pretty much came up with a beautiful product, I think 

Rich Bennett 28:04
I think they're important They they definitely sell the book I believe and with oh my god with the way AI is today It's very easy for people to create a trailer should be yes, but alright, so I'm gonna put you on a spot again What was your favorite part of the book? 

Deborah Morris 28:31
I think the chapter where Judith and Baldwin 

get together 

Rich Bennett 28:39
Mm-hmm 

Deborah Morris 28:40
finally and Arrange for their escape for her escape from the palace. I love that one 

Rich Bennett 28:48
Right the hallow did actually take you to write just that part of the moon. 

Deborah Morris 28:55
That's a good question. Probably 

a week really 

Rich Bennett 29:03
And how many battle scenes did you write about? 

Deborah Morris 29:07
they're just maybe three or four real battle scenes. There are assemblies where they're they're talking preparing for battle 

Rich Bennett 29:18
and right 

Deborah Morris 29:19
And about there's areas where they have a council work Council. We've been attacked now. What do we do? but the actual battle scenes just a few and another surprising thing 

That that I found was I had no idea that Athel wolf His son had tried to take his kingdom from 

him and that and had divided they had actually had a big council 

Rich Bennett 29:53
Mm-hmm 

Deborah Morris 29:54
called a botanogamot and And the council could either choose to have Athel wolf remain keen or his son Athel bald 

become the new king and that's very 

very dramatic Yeah And they've stand before the council and make their arguments 

Rich Bennett 30:21
Okay, so when you increte me if we're wrong, but you said earlier when you first wrote this to manuscript You wrote it as a history book right? 

Deborah Morris 30:30
Yeah, 

Rich Bennett 30:31
and then 

Deborah Morris 30:32
you know more as a history 

Rich Bennett 30:33
Right and then you decided to convert it over to a novel which means you're throwing in the I get well, 

Deborah Morris 30:42
know 

Rich Bennett 30:42
I don't 

Deborah Morris 30:42
the dialogue 

Rich Bennett 30:43
Yes, how hard and with especially if this being your first novel how hard was that to do? 

Deborah Morris 30:51
I found that it was not as difficult as I feared 

Rich Bennett 30:57
Okay, I 

Deborah Morris 30:59
Don't know if it's because of my theater background 

Rich Bennett 31:07
But 

Deborah Morris 31:07
I am used to getting inside a character and walking around in their shoes and trying to think about educations and why am I doing this? Okay? This is what I did. Why would I do that 

Rich Bennett 31:21
right 

Deborah Morris 31:22
and? So I tried to approach it the book that way From every single character. So if I was writing from the point of view of hinkmar who is the archbishop of Reims. Who is the main counselor for King Charles I was trying to think 'why would he do that? Why would he write that? Why would he say that?' And I tried to take on that character without judging him. But being that character. 

If 

Rich Bennett 31:55
Why? 

Deborah Morris 31:55
that makes sense. 

Rich Bennett 31:56
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 31:57
Because sometimes if we project our own feelings onto a character, then of course they're the bad guy. No, 

Rich Bennett 32:05
Right. 

Deborah Morris 32:06
in that person's mind, it makes perfect sense what they did. And yes, it may be bad, but why were they doing that? What were they thinking? And so that's important to me that the characters were true to themselves. And I think it helps the history come alive as well. 

Rich Bennett 32:27
Oh, absolutely. Now, did you take any writing courses or anything before you 

Deborah Morris 32:32
your 

Rich Bennett 32:32
set 

Deborah Morris 32:32
writing courses? 

Rich Bennett 32:33
down 

Deborah Morris 32:33
Well, I did. I would say, uh, uh, take all my courses, I guess you would say, in getting masters for English, but, uh, but, uh, some of them are writing 

Rich Bennett 32:53
words. 

Deborah Morris 32:53
some 

Rich Bennett 32:54
Right. 

Deborah Morris 32:54
Sure. I've always loved books. I've always been an avid reader. So, I think that... 

Rich Bennett 32:59
Which is good. Oh, it helps a lot. It helps them. I was gonna say something else, but I ain't gonna say that. It helps a lot. 

All right. So with the booking, you did something else that a lot of authors don't do. And if they go through a traditional publishing company, they got to wait at least a year for some reason. It's an audiobook form, correct? 

Deborah Morris 33:27
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 33:27
And who, who did the audio? 

Deborah Morris 33:30
I did the audio. 

Rich Bennett 33:31
You did all of it? 

Deborah Morris 33:33
No, I narrated 

Rich Bennett 33:35
it. 

Really? 

Deborah Morris 33:37
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 33:37
Now, what about the character voices? 

Deborah Morris 33:40
Well, there it's, uh, I did my best 

Rich Bennett 33:45
to 

Deborah Morris 33:47
make it seem individual to the characters. But of course, my voice isn't gonna sound exactly like a guy as the boy. 

Rich Bennett 33:57
Yeah, you're not gonna sound like Baldwin. 

Deborah Morris 33:59
No. No. But, um, but I can put the emotion behind 

Rich Bennett 34:04
it. Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 34:06
As an actress, I know how to get into those characters, and I know them better than most people would know them, um, and their motivation. So I hope that comes through. 

Rich Bennett 34:19
I'm glad you did that because, excuse me, like I said, a lot of people, especially traditional publishing, they got to wait. And they're always told that it's gonna cost, basically, it's gonna cost an arm and a leg, but a lot of people don't think about doing it themselves. 

Deborah Morris 34:40
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 34:40
And it makes, it makes a big difference. It's, it, it, it, it, and micro-friendly computer. That's it. And you can do it. It may take a while, but that's okay. Do it. And with everything out there today, you can even disguise your voice. You'd be like the customer service voice or something like that. 

Deborah Morris 35:01
That's an idea. If I had known how to use AI, maybe I could have said, Oh, during this part, my voice will sound 

Rich Bennett 35:08
like, well. 

Deborah Morris 35:09
Mel Gibson. 

Rich Bennett 35:10
Right. 

Believe it or not, there are things out 

Deborah Morris 35:14
that. 

Rich Bennett 35:14
there to do You know, I mean, you could always do that for the prequel. 

Deborah Morris 35:19
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 35:19
That you're writing. 

Deborah Morris 35:21
That's true. 

Rich Bennett 35:22
Yeah. Alright, so explain to everybody. Alright, I want to do this two ways. But first, those people listening that love historical fiction, explain to them why they need to purchase this book. 

Deborah Morris 35:42
Well, there is a lot of historical fiction out there. There's not a lot for that time period. And we do have people, such as Bernard Cornwell, last kingdom, he freely admits that he kind of plays, free and loose with history. 

Rich Bennett 36:01
yeah, 

Deborah Morris 36:01
And that his, his main focus is his characters, which are not usually or not always the historical character, but somebody who's placed into this historical setting. 

And I think that's common approach, I 

Rich Bennett 36:23
a 

Deborah Morris 36:23
think, for historical fiction. They'll take a little bit of history. But I think if you want to know how 

modern Europe ended up being what it was and why the people in France speak French, and they don't all speak German because when France is invaded by King Charles's stepbrother, Louis the German, it could have gone the other way. 

Rich Bennett 36:51
Right. 

Deborah Morris 36:58
feel comfortable with all the main events that happen in this book, being as true to history, as absolutely possible, but having it come alive. So I feel like it's history brought to life, or history dramatized. And it's a fascinating journey. I think their story is worth knowing. 

Rich Bennett 37:25
Oh yeah. 

Deborah Morris 37:25
And these are great people. And I also feel like 

Baldwin Iron Arm is like the hero that a lot of books don't want anymore. He's definitely a macho hero, but he also loves his Judith. And he's just, he's an ideal hero, I think. 

Rich Bennett 37:53
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 37:54
And Judith, her story is very touching 

as she emerges this beautiful, strong woman from being a vulnerable child, placed in difficult circumstances. And that is the path that a lot of us take. 

Rich Bennett 38:18
Mm hmm. Well, the second question, you just answered with that because I was going to ask people that don't read historical fiction why they need to buy this. But would you just explain there, I think that's for everybody? I think that's why they need to buy it. 

Deborah Morris 38:38
And 

Rich Bennett 38:39
The cover, who did the cover, because I love it. 

Deborah Morris 38:44
I'm glad you enjoyed the cover. I had, I had someone design it for me, but I was a little bit worried. 

I felt like it expresses very clearly the beauty and the burden of royalty. 

Rich Bennett 39:07
It, 

Deborah Morris 39:07
And you can see the reflection of 

Rich Bennett 39:09
yes. 

Deborah Morris 39:10
the crown. And it shows that it happened over and over. And the majority of the characters in this book are royal. 

Rich Bennett 39:19
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 39:20
Every single one of them experienced the beauty and a terrible burden of being in the situation they are in because they're royal. And I think that is universal even with some of our royals today. 

Rich Bennett 39:37
Oh, yeah. 

Deborah Morris 39:38
Maybe not so much right now, but when I was a kid, King Charles, he married lady, died because was basically acceptable to his family. Not 

Rich Bennett 39:52
she 

Deborah Morris 39:52
because he loved her. And it brought some heartache. To them. Now he's married to the one he loved all along, 

Rich Bennett 40:00
Right. 

Deborah Morris 40:00
Camille. 

And this story has a lot of those tensions in it, where people are being Judas Cousin, who is King Lothar, is, was forced into a marriage, but loves his concubine wants to dissolve that marriage. We have Judas being pressured and forced into marriage, or they're at least chosen for her. And she doesn't have it choice. So we see that, and it becomes one of the large themes in the book, the freedom to choose our relationships, our love. And that is, that's an important theme in the book. Along with courage and faith and loyalty. What does loyalty mean? Baldwin is faced with that. 

Rich Bennett 40:59
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 40:59
He pledges his loyalty to his King to protect the King's life with his own, as well as his family. So what happens when he is forced to choose between protecting the King and protecting a of the King's family, from the King? 

Rich Bennett 41:18
Because you mentioned before about, Judas was what 12? Was 

Deborah Morris 41:22
married? 

Rich Bennett 41:22
she got 

Deborah Morris 41:22
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 41:23
Yeah. And unfortunately, back in those days, yes, a lot of women were married off young, a lot of women and children were taken from their homes, sold in slavery, all kinds of things. And something about your book. Now, I want you to touch on this. Those of you listening, this is very important. 

Tell everybody what happens when they purchase the book about the proceeds. 

Deborah Morris 41:56
Well, 10% of all the net proceeds of this book will go to a marvelous organization 

called our rescue. It used to be known as Operation Underground Railroad. They were behind the movie. Now, I'm 

sorry, it's just gone out of my 

Rich Bennett 42:26
were. 

Deborah Morris 42:26
mind. They 

Rich Bennett 42:26
That's okay. 

Deborah Morris 42:28
the movie that was, uh, about the trafficking, yeah. Yeah. About four years ago, three or four years ago, about child trafficking. And it tells the story of this man who starts this organization and devotes his life and is still devoting his life to rescuing children, and setting up traps to try to, uh, net all these people who are in the business of trafficking children and freeing these children. And so, it's an important organization and I really think it would be wonderful if people would go online and just look up our rescue. 

Rich Bennett 43:14
Our rescue dot org, 

Deborah Morris 43:16
yeah. Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 43:18
Those of you listening, feel free to go there and a donation. Actually, purchase the book, the girl of many crowns, because a percentage is going to go there. But then, you can also go to our rescue dot org and make a donation as well because it, yeah. That's very important. How did you come about finding this nonprofit? 

Deborah Morris 43:43
Just through the, the movie. And that's why I can't, I don't know why I can't remember the name. 

Rich Bennett 43:49
I know I can either and I never 

Deborah Morris 43:52
think freedom. 

Rich Bennett 43:53
What is it? 

Deborah Morris 43:55
I know it had the word freedom in 

Rich Bennett 43:56
it. Yeah, I couldn't watch it because I knew, if I watched it, I would get so teed off. And it's because I talk to people all the time, a lot on here about human trafficking. And my sister's a flight attendant, they have to be trained on things like that and what the look for. I'm in Baltimore. The port here was one of the biggest ports used for human trafficking. The same with I 95 here. It's just, it's, it's, 

Deborah Morris 44:31
Well, I 

Rich Bennett 44:31
it's scary. 

Deborah Morris 44:32
was, I was, I had the same reservations. I wasn't sure if I could stand to watch it. But 

Rich Bennett 44:38
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 44:38
I, I knew it was an important film. So I forced myself to go. And I was surprised at how tastefully, if you can call it tasteful for any of it, that their approach was that it was more about rescuing these children. I mean, you get the feeling of how horrible it would be, but they never show anything that would, that would be too much. 

Rich Bennett 45:06
It would, yeah, that wouldn't trigger a lot of people. 

Deborah Morris 45:09
It would, it still does. I mean, it still makes you, your heart just bleed for them. 

Rich Bennett 45:16
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 45:17
Do something for them. But I, there was no graphic depiction of what was being done to these children. So I was, you know, maybe you see a man entered the door and you see the little child's innocent face. And it goes black and goes to another 

Rich Bennett 45:36
you 

Deborah Morris 45:36
screen, 

Rich Bennett 45:36
know, yeah, 

Deborah Morris 45:38
something like that. 

Rich Bennett 45:39
And those of you listening, they even got a podcast. I think it's a voices for freedom. Actually, was that the name of the show? The movie. 

Deborah Morris 45:49
Sound of freedom? No. Maybe. 

Rich Bennett 45:53
Oh, God, I can't, anyways. So they got the podcast. 

Deborah Morris 45:56
Maybe sound of freedom. 

Rich Bennett 45:58
That may be it. may be it, but I am, I'm glad you're doing that. That's, I love seeing when authors do that where percentage goes to that. And I, 

Deborah Morris 46:09
and it wasn't just a little girl. 

Rich Bennett 46:12
No, 

Deborah Morris 46:12
or who were in that day 

Rich Bennett 46:14
women too. Women 

Deborah Morris 46:16
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 46:16
in 

Deborah Morris 46:16
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 46:16
man. 

Deborah Morris 46:17
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 46:18
I mean, well, you, you think like then you had, 

I mean, I'm hope, I don't think I'm wrong here. But I think even a lot of priest were kid when they, especially when the Vikings would go and read towns and they would bring back the priest and put them into slavery. It's, 

Deborah Morris 46:38
may have I did 

Rich Bennett 46:39
they 

Deborah Morris 46:40
not encounter any accounts at that, but, but it could be. 

Rich Bennett 46:43
It's just, oh, God. 

Deborah Morris 46:45
Even worse slaves definitely slaves. 

Rich Bennett 46:48
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 46:49
And there is a scene in the book where Baldwin iron arm is tasked with paying a ransom because they, what they would do is they would often would, when the Vikings conducted a raid, if there was anyone of any value. They take them and hold them for huge amounts of 

Rich Bennett 47:13
rent. Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 47:14
Yep. And so then the whole kingdom would have to try and pool their money together to try to ransom these people. And one of those is a bishop of, of, of, of, of the main cathedrals there near 

Rich Bennett 47:33
one 

Deborah Morris 47:33
Paris. Outside of Paris. And he also happens to be a cousin of King Charles. 

Rich Bennett 47:41
So worth 

Deborah Morris 47:41
So.. 

Rich Bennett 47:41
a 

Deborah Morris 47:43
lot of money? 

Rich Bennett 47:44
A lot 

Deborah Morris 47:44
of money. Yeah. Not a 

Rich Bennett 47:45
lot of silver. 

Deborah Morris 47:48
Yeah, and when Baldwin enters the Viking encampment, which is being built and it's huge, uhm, they're who's building it, the slaves 

Rich Bennett 48:01
they.. 

Deborah Morris 48:01
that 

Rich Bennett 48:01
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 48:02
All their rights. 

Rich Bennett 48:03
Yep. Oh yeah, it's.. Oh, God. Alright, so before I get to my last question, which I have no idea what it's going to be, and I don't like to talk about the whole book because I don't want to give the book away. I want people to purchase it. But is there anything else that you would like the listeners to know about this 

besides 

Deborah Morris 48:26
the fact that it has a happy ending? Unlike some. 

Rich Bennett 48:31
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 48:32
Books, uh, and historical fiction books, there's a, sometimes you get feeling depressed after reading it. 

Rich Bennett 48:38
Uh-huh. 

Deborah Morris 48:39
Everybody that I've spoken to, um, feels uplifted, encouraged, inspired, strengthened by story. And it's, uh, it was a privilege to write about such wonderful people. 

Rich Bennett 49:03
Yeah. I love that. Alright, so I'm, I do something different now. I see, I've been saying that for a while, so technically he's not different now. But I have a list of 100 different questions. Don't worry, Deborah, I'm not going to ask you all 100. I don't, I have no idea what the question is going to be. Somehow or another, most of the guests that have come on, whichever question they pick, it ended up somehow or another lining with what we are talking about. So pick a question between one and 100. And whatever number you pick, I also want to know why you pick that number. 

Deborah Morris 49:44
Okay, I will pick, 

uh, 11 because I have 11 grandchildren. 

Rich Bennett 49:58
Yeah, which I find that hard to believe. 11, those of you listening, you cannot see, Deborah, she is the youngest looking grandmother I have seen. 

Deborah Morris 50:08
Oh, you're so. 

Rich Bennett 50:09
A 11 grand children come on. Oh, wow. This technically in a way aligns with it because we're talking about history. 

Deborah Morris 50:23
I'm sorry, we have a visitor. 

Rich Bennett 50:26
Uh huh, who's it? Oh, little puppy. 

Deborah Morris 50:31
You want it up. 

Rich Bennett 50:34
What's the name, 

Deborah Morris 50:36
Max, 

Rich Bennett 50:37
Max, how you doing, Max? Max is looking like, wait, who's that talking to me? Hey, Max. I need a dog. Alright, number 11, what is something you're still unlearning from your past? 

That's, it's a hard question. 

Deborah Morris 50:58
Unlearning from my. 

Rich Bennett 50:59
Yeah, 

Deborah Morris 51:03
um, I'm trying to unlearn. And I wish I had known this when I was raising my kids because I think I would have been a better, I know I would have been a better mother. I was raised in a strict home. And I was more of an obedient child. I didn't really have a rebellious streak in me. I wanted to please people. 

Rich Bennett 51:28
Right. 

Deborah Morris 51:29
And um, 

unfortunately, I didn't realize as a mother that it's important, not important to insist that your kids do things right. Let's 

Rich Bennett 51:50
Yeah. 

Deborah Morris 51:50
give you a little bit of leeway to make mistakes because that's how we all learn. 

Rich Bennett 51:55
Yes. 

Deborah Morris 51:56
That the most important thing is just to make them feel loved no matter what mistake they make. And that I wish I had unlearned because I had a strict father, earlier. 

Rich Bennett 52:14
yeah, 

Deborah Morris 52:14
And I still have to remind myself of that every day. It doesn't matter if we're perfect. It matters that we are loved. 

Rich Bennett 52:24
I love that. Yeah, that's, yeah, I was the same way. And 

it is important because we learn that we, as we grow up, you learn from your mistakes. 

Deborah Morris 52:37
But, 

Rich Bennett 52:38
but for some reason, we don't want to let, you know, we don't tell our kids that and, you know, we correct them right away if they make a mistake, let them learn from it. 

Deborah Morris 52:46
We're afraid they'll grow up to be serial killers. 

Rich Bennett 52:50
Yeah. God. All right. So tell everybody where they can find the book. And 

how 

Deborah Morris 52:58
Well, it's 

Rich Bennett 52:59
they? 

Deborah Morris 52:59
available on an ebook and audible and paperback through Amazon. You can also find it on all the major venues, arts and novel. Apple books, things like that. 

Rich Bennett 53:21
'And if somebody wants to get a book published with you, how do they gain in contact with you?' 

Deborah Morris 53:27
Well, we are currently (laughs) 

Rich Bennett 53:32
uh, 

Deborah Morris 53:34
not moving forward with that. And t- 

Rich Bennett 53:37
Oh! 

Deborah Morris 53:38
'Do this next book.' 

Rich Bennett 53:41
Oh, okay. So that means when you come on after, for the second book, then you'll start doing that. 

Deborah Morris 53:49
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 53:49
'I knew that. I was just testing 

Deborah Morris 53:51
you.' (laughs) 

Rich Bennett 53:54
'Debra, I want to thank you so much.' Those of you listening, again, purchase the girl of many crowns. Make sure you leave a full review after you read it, and then after you read it, keep the book 'cause you're probably reading again, and purchase a copy or several copies for other people that you think would be interested. 'Debra, thank you so much.'

Deborah Morris 54:16
'Thank you, Rich. It's been a delight.'

Rich Bennett 54:19
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and learned something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love it if you can leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media, or visit our website at ConversationsWithRichPenet.com for updates, giveaways, and more. Until next time, take care, be kind, and keep the conversations going. You It takes a lot to put a podcast together. And my sponsors help add a lot. But I also have some supporters that actually help me when it comes to the editing software, the hosting, and so forth. There's a lot that goes into putting this together. So I want to thank them. And if you can, please, please visit their website, visit their businesses, support them however you can. So please visit the following. Real-life RealLife prosthetics, cutting edge solutions, restoring ability since 2001, go to reallifeprostetics.com. Full circle boards, nobody does charcuterie like full circle boards, visit them at fullcircleboards.com. Sincerely, so your photography, live in the moment, they'll capture it. Visit them at sincerelysoyer.com.