Susan Hensley on Breaking Free from Perfectionism Through Art

Struggling with perfectionism? In this episode of Conversations with Rich Bennett, author and coach Susan Hensley reveals how art journaling can help you break free from the pressure of always getting it right and rediscover the joy of creative self-expression. Learn how simple, playful art exercises can reduce anxiety, spark innovation, and help you embrace imperfection—whether in art, business, or daily life. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that will leave you feeling empowered to let go, create, and thrive!

Guest: Susan Hensley – Speaker, Author & Transformational Coach

Susan Hensley is a speaker, author, and transformational coach specializing in helping individuals navigate life’s transitions with creativity, courage, and self-discovery. With a background in journalism and executive coaching, Susan combines her expertise in storytelling and personal development to empower others through art journaling and creative expression. Her book, Art for Your Sanity, explores how embracing imperfection through art can reduce anxiety, break free from perfectionism, and unlock deeper emotional healing. Susan has worked with individuals, businesses, and colleges to reignite creativity, resilience, and personal growth, proving that you don’t need to be an artist to use art as a tool for transformation.

Main Topics:

·         The Link Between Perfectionism and Creativity – Why the fear of making mistakes holds people back from self-expression and innovation

·         What is Art Journaling? – How it differs from doodling and why it’s a powerful tool for emotional healing and stress relief

·         The Science Behind Creativi

Emily Adolph and Ona Crow are the co-creators of Nourish & Connect, an event designed to foster meaningful connections in a supportive and empowering environment. NOURISH & CONNECT – The Soul Lift

WHFC 91.1 FM
It's all about community. WHFC 91.1 FM, Harford Community College Radio, is the college radio sta

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:55 Meet Susan Hensley
• 3:47 What is Art Journaling?
• 6:06 Why Perfectionism Kills Creativity
• 8:26 Art Journaling for Mental Health
• 11:14 Finger Painting as an Adult?
• 15:05 Creativity in Everyday Life
• 19:32 The Science Behind Art and Emotional Healing
• 27:40 Creativity Isn’t Just for Artists
• 31:40 Art Journaling in Business & Innovation
• 40:15 Thinking Outside the Box vs. Never Entering It
• 46:29 How to Get Started with Art Journaling
• 51:28 Susan’s Coaching and How to Connect
• 56:43 Final Thoughts & Takeaways

Transcript

Rich & Wendy 0:00
Hey, everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning ten this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared an episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we shared laughs, tears and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next ten years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios. Harford County Living presents conversations with Rich Bennett. 

Today, I'm going to get kind. 

No, no, no. The truth is. 

Rich Bennett 1:00
Today on Conversations with Rich Bennett. I'm thrilled to welcome Susan Hensley. Susan is a speaker, author and trainer who has dedicated her career to helping individuals navigate life's transitions with courage, creativity and self-discovery. Her latest book, Art for Your Sanity, explores the transformative power of art journaling, encouraging readers to embrace imperfection and reconnect with their inner child. Susan's insights on emotional healing, resilience and creativity promise to inspire and resonate with anyone seeking to navigate life's challenges with grace and purpose. I am really looking forward to this, and I did have somebody on that talked about doodling, but I believe this is different from that in a way, and we'll find out here in a little bit. How you doing, Susan? 

Susan Hensley 1:56
I'm great. How are you? 

Rich Bennett 1:57
I am doing good besides Cole. But I can't. I can't complain because where you're at, like I said, you got that white stuff that you're not used to. 

Susan Hensley 2:06
No, it's not just for the listeners. I'm in Austin, Texas, and it shuts everything down. Right? Quarter inch. I've lived 

Rich Bennett 2:14
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 2:14
in Wisconsin. I've lived on Wisconsin, Minnesota border, where you're never shut in. 

Rich Bennett 2:18
Oh, yeah. 

Susan Hensley 2:20
And this just a half inch and it like everything was just done yesterday. 

Rich Bennett 2:27
Well, I think 

Susan Hensley 2:27
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 2:28
I saw something. Was it Houston who got. They got pounded with a lot of snow, and apparently they don't have any snow plows. 

Susan Hensley 2:36
Right. 

Rich Bennett 2:38
Well, they definitely aren't ready. I mean, they're definitely don't get a lot of snow. All right. So I want to ask this right off the bat, what is the difference between what you do and doodling or is difference? 

Susan Hensley 2:52
So art journaling, let's call them kissin cousins, right? 

Rich Bennett 2:56
Okay. 

Susan Hensley 2:58
Our journey with a lot more in intention. So if you think of just start with like what written journaling it. There's been a lot about some people write morning pages or it's like keeping you know back in the day it was like called keeping a diary. Now it's a lot more free freeform, but you're writing and processing your thoughts, right? There's been a lot of studies in science that's really helpful for us to process our emotions, get out of like the up, ride the emotions taking us on and journal. What I found totally inadvertently, because this isn't about making art, so I feel like I need to start there. This is absolutely not about artistic skill that when I started playing with it and then did the research, I sort of backed my way into this because I personally needed something. What it did, playing with art and I'm using the stuff I used as a kit, I mean, crayons, glue sticks, and it's it's about processing. It's fun. You're sort of curious and you don't have an expectation when going in for answers. So similar to doodling, you're just freeing your mind, right? So that part's the same. But this is like, I'm going to sit down and for 10 minutes I'm just going to create. Lots of times when we doodle, we're doing something else, right? We're on a phone or where? Bored, right? Many times do. 

Rich Bennett 4:20
boring meeting, right? Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 4:22
Lots of boring meetings and but it's a great place to start because I'll say to people like, start your art journal with what you love to doodle or what you loved to draw. You're a little go to as a kit, right? Some people with cards, but you're doing it with a little more, if you will, intention. And you're starting with ten months, but you're just doing that. You're not multitasking, if you will. And I 

Rich Bennett 4:45
Yeah, 

Susan Hensley 4:46
like doodling is about a way to sort of get yourself over to that right side of your brain, which is what art journaling is going to do, right? You put on right left side the brain's über analytical judging. We we live our lives, most of us in Western society, like getting stuff done right, being productive, maximizing our time, and it's all great. But we need a little balance sometimes. And 

Rich Bennett 5:11
right. 

Susan Hensley 5:11
I've really found and the research shows you get over to that right side of your brain and you're more creative. It's curious. It's even sometimes a little playful. I mean, whoever puts is an adult, like actual play in your day. And I'm not talking about like if you're going to go play a sport like pick. 

Rich Bennett 5:30
Right. 

Susan Hensley 5:31
I'm talking about actual play. 

Rich Bennett 5:34
You're right. I mean, the whole time you're talking, all is I keep thinking about, especially when you said the glue sticks and everything. My daughter, guess a couple of years ago bought me, which I didn't know was a thing. A dog, an adult coloring book. 

Susan Hensley 5:51
Yeah. Total thing. 

Rich Bennett 5:53
Yeah. And it was of one of my favorite bands, Kiss. Well, of course, she kept asking me, Well, why haven't you started coloring? I said, Because I only have so many colored pencils. 

It's KISS, so it's got to be perfect. So I ordered a case. I forget how many hundreds of color. 

Susan Hensley 6:14
Wow. 

Rich Bennett 6:15
Yeah, I still haven't gotten one page done yet. 

Susan Hensley 6:19
So you know what's interesting? No, it's 

Rich Bennett 6:21
Right? 

Susan Hensley 6:21
not bad. Here's what's sort of interesting about the coloring books. And I. I think different things work for different people. So the 

Rich Bennett 6:28
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 6:29
adult coloring books, where you go for it, I had brought them to the lines. And the expectation, like to your point, it's kiss. And so you got an image in your mind immediately of what you wanted it to be. And and so all of a sudden there's this sense of doing it right or some level of perfection, and you needed a lot more tools. What I found really unlocks for people and it unlocked for me was using, like I said, the glue sticks, the crayons, the finger paint, whatever it is. You don't take yourself seriously. You don't go into it with this is what it needs to look like. It's free form. Maybe I just want to draw stick figures. Maybe I want to draw a little screaming faces. I mean, I have literally drawn in a rage that like, screaming Bates, You know, a mode just like. 

Rich Bennett 7:16
Yeah, 

Susan Hensley 7:17
And and it's super cathartic. And then I will write words out of it. It's it is like a five year old in an adult 

Rich Bennett 7:27
I. 

Susan Hensley 7:27
and adult body, and it's so cathartic. 

Rich Bennett 7:31
I was good. This has got to be great for your mental health as well. I would think. 

Susan Hensley 7:34
Right? Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:36
But you mentioned something there that I would have never even thought of because I was I can think of as kindergarten. But now I want to try it. And that's the finger paint. 

Susan Hensley 7:47
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 7:48
That had. I take it you did it. 

Susan Hensley 7:52
I did it. I went one step crazier and yet in. 

Rich Bennett 7:57
You didn't want to eat the glue. 

Susan Hensley 7:59
No, I didn't 

Rich Bennett 8:00
Okay. 

Susan Hensley 8:00
take the glue. I put paint one day. I mean, I was obviously having a hard, hard time processing things. I thought, what would it feel like on my feet? And I took a piece of paper. And this is the beauty of being an adult, because you can do that in your own house as a kid. 

Rich Bennett 8:14
Right. 

Susan Hensley 8:15
Your parents would have killed you. I thought. Is this? What would it feel like? And I got a paper plate, stepped in it stepped on the paper. So I actually went, I've only done that once because then I found I had to like, try and get my feet washed up on the kitchen sink. And, you know, it's a whole yoga exercise in itself isn't. Trying to get your feet washed with washable paint in a kitchen sink. But what it did and this is the premise of the book, and I wrote the book long after I did this, right. I was in a big corporate job, super stressed was during the pandemic or lockdown, you know, all the stuff. I was in essence, working through my stress, through play, through curiosity, and through no rules. I mean, what I spent like 10 minutes putting my feet in a little bit of pain on a few things. And I, like I said, managed to be limber enough to get the feet washed in the towel. And when it's your own house, no one's yelling at you and you. Keep it or what. But so dang fun and releasing of whatever is built up eventually over time, I swear the art journal and people I work with have had the same experience actually starts to talk to you because it's really tapping into that inner wisdom and encouraging you to take chances. But I never, until the day I did that, never, ever. Because I took myself pretty seriously. Right. You know, was like job raising family, doing all the things, you know, would sit there thinking. Yeah. Finger painting glue didn't eat the glue, but I love my Elmer's glue stick. I pulled the cap off that thing, and, you know, I don't use the paste and I'm just a happy camper collage in a way. 

Rich Bennett 10:03
I have got to try this. The thing you mentioned about putting your your feet in the paint. There's 

something I definitely want to do now. If I could convince her to do it. And you said you have kids. 

Susan Hensley 10:19
Grow now more or less grow. 

Rich Bennett 10:22
So when they were alive, they actually I don't know if I saw I presume my daughter did, but when they were younger in school, did they do the thing where they put their I don't think they did it with their feet, but their hands in. 

Susan Hensley 10:34
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 10:35
Did the handprint on the plate. You save it, right? 

Susan Hensley 10:37
Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Like they do it for, like, Father's Day, Mother. Right. They 

Rich Bennett 10:41
Yes. 

Susan Hensley 10:41
have. Do these? Yes. 

Rich Bennett 10:43
I want to file. I got to see if I still have that and then convince my daughter to do it again, because the little hands compared to her hands now. 

Susan Hensley 10:52
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 10:52
And I guarantee. Oh, God, I think it would just make her feel good to just doing it. 

Susan Hensley 10:57
Yeah. So I mean, that's the sort of thing people say. Right. I mean, 

Rich Bennett 11:00
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 11:00
that sort of thing. When we talk about what gets lost in a fire, fires are topical when we're recording this. It's the things your kids made or you. 

Rich Bennett 11:12
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 11:13
That have all the emotional value that are a snapshot in a moment of time. Right. That. Print that little footprint and you don't recreate that. And you don't think of it every day until all of a sudden we're having a conversation, right. And it comes to you. 

Rich Bennett 11:30
Oh, I cannot wait to try this. So with with the book. Well, first of all, what inspired you to actually write the book? 

Susan Hensley 11:39
You know, Joe, longer story. I had a first career as a journalist and people would always ask me, and that was what my education is. Do you want to write a book? I'm never writing a book and would certainly never write about my own personal journey. 

Rich Bennett 11:54
Right. 

Susan Hensley 11:54
Then I spent like 20 years in corporate America and really working with the art journal. I realized it was time for a big change. And so I left the job. Company I loved. Been there a long time with no real plan, which was really scary. I had lots of images jumping off a cliff, but at a certain age you just know you need that change, right? And with art. And so for about a year, I worked part time, did different things, but I was adrift. And I realized in my coaching practice because I was still working with coaching people more like as executives and careers, 

Rich Bennett 12:28
Right. 

Susan Hensley 12:29
I was telling them to Art journal. I was like, You will. I would explain it because it's super low barrier, very easy to do. And watching the insights they were getting, just like I got through it and you know, it started with their having fun. Then they got really curious. Then they started to better understand themselves and you can do it along with therapy and other things, or you can just do it. And when I started to see the impact it was having on people, someone's ah said, you need to write a book. You know how you do. You're like, No, no, I'm not going. And then it's like, Yeah, I can make this low barrier. I can put it out there with the way of a one on one. You only reach so many people because I was telling anyone, you know, I wasn't quite accosting people in the art supply section of Target, but close Rise people are watching me buy my crayons and stuff, you know, and they're always like, Oh, do you have kids at home? It's like, No, it's all mine. So. 

You know, one on one at age. I want to put this out there. And then, of course, it leads to some workshops or speaking because you you realize you want to share it. But it I backed into it inadvertently and both art journaling and then the book Art for Your Sanity and online course and workshops were all inadvertent but sort of encouraged through the art journaling, just being a really great tool. Like I said, it's not going to be for everyone, but it's fun to play with. And if it hits for you, it's it's great. You can do it anywhere and it's cheap and right easy. 

Rich Bennett 14:10
It sounds almost like you had this with adults in mind. 

Susan Hensley 14:14
Absolutely so. Kids. So the research shows we get messages by about eight or nine. They were no longer creative. So I really ask adults to tap into that inner child artist where it was five or six when you thought what you were creating was fantastic and hopefully you had a supportive parent or teacher or someone who's like putting it on the fridge because I. 

Rich Bennett 14:36
Right. 

Susan Hensley 14:37
I joke that when the first day I played with art, I went to a little art lesson and made a big old mess. I actually went home, put on the fridge, and my husband and son are like, What? It's like a brown splotch, what you do. But I had fun, right? It tapped into. I don't have to be perfect. This isn't about being perfect. It's about doing something that feels good. That's right. 

Rich Bennett 15:00
Right. 

Susan Hensley 15:01
Healthy and good for you and a way to to release. And so, yeah, it's really interesting when we back into something particularly where that we're recording this at the time, the year when everyone's setting goals and resolutions and what I love is actually when you back into something that you enjoy because you keep doing it, it is not a chore to do something that you love doing for 10 minutes a day, right? It draws you to it. And that's why I like people. If they're curious and like, you know, give it a try. Low barrier, do it 10 minutes a day. You know, if you can give it a week or two and if it keeps being fine, you'll keep coming back to it very, very naturally. And it's not a darn one more thing to do on your list. 

Rich Bennett 15:53
Okay. So with your coaching. And this because you tie them together. Right. And it helped you through COVID. 

Susan Hensley 16:03
Yeah, I'm sure. 

Rich Bennett 16:05
Have you and I. I don't know if you work with them or not, but I'm thinking of. The kids that were in high school during COVID because they see that, you know, these kids basically lost three years of their social life. Have you worked with any of them? 

Susan Hensley 16:22
I have not worked with that age group. The age group. I'm starting to do more and more work with and have in the last few years is well. And by now those probably are the kids in college, Right? 

Rich Bennett 16:30
Right. 

Susan Hensley 16:31
So if you look at. 

Rich Bennett 16:32
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 16:33
It is. It hasn't been so much high schoolers. It is people in in college. I was actually on a college campus back in November and between the worries about job market, the costs, the need to be perfect or top. I was talking to them about doing something a few minutes a day where you have none of that, like literally doing something that you're bad at, but you enjoy. 

Rich Bennett 17:03
Hmm. 

Susan Hensley 17:03
Saying. It doesn't necessarily have to be art banging on drum, but just something that's private, where you are freeing your mind from all that pressure. Because, as you said, those kids, not only did they lose a lot of social ability, but I think when you are interacting, interact with humans, it's a bit like improv because you really 

Rich Bennett 17:22
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 17:23
never know what I'm going to say or you're going to say, right? I mean, we're just having a conversation. 

Rich Bennett 17:27
Right. 

Susan Hensley 17:28
And when they lost all of that, I think you lose some of that creativity and that ability to work with what's coming at you. And I think that's what doing something right. Creative, I joke, you know do something bad late to get out of that perfectionism really help. So where I'm seen it and I actually I'll be talking here in another month or two on a different college campus is trying to understand. How like perfectionism in everything being on line, how much that separates us or can 

Rich Bennett 18:05
Right. 

Susan Hensley 18:05
from 

creativity, from openness, if you will, from seeing like what's next? Because you're not comparing yourself when you're in the moment or doing something about that. You're just having fun. 

Rich Bennett 18:20
Huh? 

Susan Hensley 18:21
I put that in a bit of odd direction. I'm not sure if that's what your question was. 

Rich Bennett 18:24
No, no, no. Because, I mean, you you mentioned you're going to the college campuses and those are the kids that suffered during COVID because they had their social life taken away from. 

Susan Hensley 18:37
Absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 18:39
And now you're you're out there helping them. Actually, I in this early, but I just I love these. I love hear these, especially especially with your coaching and even your speak in the book. Can you share a feel good story of about somebody that you've helped because of this? 

Susan Hensley 19:00
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 19:00
Besides me. Because I know. I get to do it? I'm telling you, Susan, tonight I have a funny feeling I. I want a fingerprint. So freaking bad now. But journaling some. 

Susan Hensley 19:18
So one of my favorite stories, stories, it was a. Sort of a, I think, a breakthrough moment for her. A terrific person right from the outside. Vivacious, super friendly woman, probably about 50 as well. Tell you about her, but. Busy. And she came to one of the workshops and we some of the initial exercises, like for 3 minutes, just fill a page. We put on some music can. You're just scribbling, right? You're not going to show it to anyone. And then there's another exercise where you're doing there other these forced exercises in the workshop, and she only did two of them. It was like two, three minute exercises. And she and I've now stayed in touch and around she became a client and she came up to me and she was almost tearing up. There was so much emotion. And she says. Since his original career in the medical profession. Right. So, you know, you want them to get it right, 

Rich Bennett 20:20
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 20:21
you know, So it's about being precise and being perfect. And then when she was raising a family and all this, everything was about being poor, because I don't think I haven't followed instructions. I have lived my entire adult life with instructions. I've always looked for how to do something perfectly and tried to do that because I can't remember a time that she was mid-fifties that I have done something that was just me with no instructions. She goes, I follow recipes. I follow rules. It's like I read parenting books, I read, you know, housekeeping. My my career in this profession was very prescriptive and you do things. And it actually took me back. I thought, could that be be true? Why is this touching her in this way? That to three minute exercises where she just did whatever she wanted and she didn't have a big crayon selection? I mean, seriously, this is like a workshop. And it so struck her how constricted or how much of her day without even knowing she was trying to do the right thing. Now you would meet her and fun loving, great laugh I mean white one these people thousand watch smile, great laugh. And you would think, oh, you know, she seems very free, very friendly. And I think what happened is she realized how much. She was acting and behaving how she thought she should and just the act of 

scribbling, doodling, timed with no other rule other than fill the page. Write a constraint really helped her unlock that she needed to make some changes. And this is where she became a client and really think a little bit more about how to be more creative in her life and not just look at other people. What are people doing on social media? What should I be doing at this age, you know, sort of following the Joneses or whatever the phrase. 

Rich Bennett 22:23
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 22:25
So it was it struck me because the interaction right there's people I'll coach for three months or six months and we'll work towards a goal and variety of tools or during a live transition. This was so fast and it was such a big unlock that I think she wasn't even seen in herself. How constricted she really felt because she she wouldn't have appeared that way to anyone. No one would have said, Wow, you really need to lighten up or loosen up. You know, you're. And it was all internalized. So, you know, when you ask a question, I think that's a little bit. A power of a fast and lock when something just hits you, Right? Right. And so that's the example that comes to mind. There are others that are slower builds where you get, you know, self-discovery. But that was such an aha for her. 

Rich Bennett 23:17
So with the art journaling part 

A, I guess what would happen during your workshops, But have you ever come across where somebody just 

they're scared to do it for some reason? 

Susan Hensley 23:35
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 23:36
Does that make sense? 

Susan Hensley 23:37
Absolutely. And I think times get questions and where it comes from. So we spend a little bit of time or someone takes online class or just writes a question about the book as to why right was there. If art journaling takes you initially to a place of like play and I joke like, bring us into play, think of your inner child artist. 

Rich Bennett 23:58
Right? 

Susan Hensley 23:58
Sometimes if someone's really scared, there was some I want to be careful the way I'm using trauma, right? There's like little drama trauma and big time. There was some hurt there. There was. 

Rich Bennett 24:09
Right. 

Susan Hensley 24:11
Fear that was introduced. 

Maybe this isn't the right outlet if it's about art. Maybe there is an adjacent outlet to start with, right? And that could be singing, pottery, gardening. What you're looking for is a creative outlet that feels good. And if someone's really stuck there and we're working together, then there's some real examination as to what's going on. And if it's really deep, right, it's like, got a license. You know, Clinical Therapist But most people, what I have found start with these fears of feeling silly. And we do an exercise and I talk about some book where you sort of take that inner art critic and you're like, You're not invited right now. This is like a play date. Literally most five year olds, if they don't want to play with each other, kids are half. They're like, Go away and. 

Rich Bennett 25:04
They'll even tell the parents as. 

Susan Hensley 25:06
Well, exactly. But you get to tell, like your inner art critic, like, hey, chill out over here. I'm just having fun. I've got this. Right. We all develop these inner critics to sort of protect us, if you will. But we don't need that protection all the time. And certainly I don't need to protect. There is nothing dangerous about art journaling. So we will do an exercise like that. Most people get over it and I'll say, put on your favorite song. Write most songs you like 3 to 4 minutes and people now on their phones, they have like a go to song, makes them feel great. It's like you put that on and just go for the length of that song and play with color and then see how you feel. And that starts to break people out of that fear and remind them which is play or creating for the sake of creating is all about I mean. 

Rich Bennett 25:57
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 25:58
There's some really great research by people who are experts in the brain that creativity is like the way out of anxiety for folks. It's. 

Rich Bennett 26:07
Oh, yes. 

Susan Hensley 26:08
A great book just came out by a woman named Martha Beck on Beyond Anxiety. I mean, never tire. And she's got all the research is like, if you're in that anxiety, look, you've got to move toward creativity. And like I said, this is an easy thing. People can keep it in their backpack, whether it's colored pencils, colored pens, you know, whatever. You can use the act of creation. And I'm thinking this is your guest who talked about doodling. And I don't know their overall message, but you can start to create and play with color and image. Our brains respond really well to that. 

Rich Bennett 26:46
And the reason I asked that question, too, was you brought it up with childhood trauma. 

Susan Hensley 26:51
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 26:53
That could be people just shut it down. Don't want to do it. But was the therapist. Have you actually been if haven't done it, have you thought about doing it? Having some therapists come to workshop or coach them alone on how to do it so they can teach their clients? How to do it because it could actually help them open up about their childhood trauma. Then down the road, they may be ready. Come take your workshop. 

Susan Hensley 27:25
Yeah, there's an amazing a whole subset. And it was interesting when I wanted to write the book, this got in my head is about a fear of true art therapy because many times kids, children currently who have been abused or in a traumatic situation, you have therapists having them draw because they really don't have the words. I mean, adult words are hard to come by because emotions are so complex and emotions, if we use words, think of how often you say something is like bittersweet, like you go to a child's graduation or something. And we were just talking about the handprint. So earlier in the conversation when you talked about finding your daughter's handprint. Little to now. That would be a bitter. You know, you're going to use whatever words, but bittersweet. It would be both wonderful and you'd feel really probably joyful or a lot of like. All about how she's grown and how big she's got. And you're probably to feel a little sad right time. 

Rich Bennett 28:20
Oh, yeah. 

Susan Hensley 28:21
And as adults or just in general society, like things are either sort of like happy or sad. And the truth is, most emotions we're experiencing both, right? That duality all the time, like. And I use bittersweet because it's a really easy one for us. And that's what the art therapists with kids currently in trauma do. So there's a whole line of therapists who are really unlocking it with and with veterans with PTSD that it's so 

Rich Bennett 28:52
Oh. 

Susan Hensley 28:52
legitimately helpful and they are really well trained. Where I come in is sort of for what I call. How I came to use it, right? I had all these great tools. I mean, I have plenty of life struggles because we all, you know, get through this life without, you know, loss and disappointment. But it was didn't fall on me that I needed something that wasn't working. I was getting so anxious and so overwhelmed and had no where to process it. The more I played, I realized it was a really helpful place. So the book 

Rich Bennett 29:30
Right. 

Susan Hensley 29:30
sort of fits in that middle spot. But it's interesting because I am reaching out right now to like there's a National Arts Foundation that does a lot of of different work. And yes, combining it with with other wellness practices and how you you layer it in. And like I said, it's so helpful for people who are in struggling with any mental health issue, whether it's anxiety, depression, to find ways, you know, to draw the characters, to draw what depression feels like on a day where you just don't want to go. What does that feel like? Right. It can be like a little stick figure tipped over. I mean, everyone has their own way of expressing. 

Rich Bennett 30:10
Yeah, 

Susan Hensley 30:11
Or collaging, and it can start to be just a really safe container for people because it's just yours 

Rich Bennett 30:19
right. 

Susan Hensley 30:19
and versus just sitting there thinking or beating yourself up like, I need to stop worrying or I need to get up off the couch and, you know, get on to my list. I think it's a helpful sort of what I call half step. Many times in making life changes, we need to take really little steps. 

Rich Bennett 30:37
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 30:37
And I feel like really little, although like teeny steps. I think this can help you in that way, too. 

Rich Bennett 30:45
God, I can think of so many different places that need this already. You know, so as we talk about recovery, I could see this being helpful in some recovery homes. 

Susan Hensley 30:56
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 30:58
Definitely. Of course, any anywhere where therapist's office all of that. I think it would be a big help. Just there's so many different places. This is your first book. 

Susan Hensley 31:15
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:17
Really? 

Susan Hensley 31:18
Yeah. No, I. 

Rich Bennett 31:20
Oh, that's right. Because you watch people say you should write a book. You're like. 

Susan Hensley 31:24
No, I'm never writing a. 

Rich Bennett 31:25
No. 

Susan Hensley 31:26
And that's the 

Rich Bennett 31:26
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 31:27
other thing that I think Art are playing with something creative, like, can I use art? What it does is it gives you a sort of stop saying no and be 

Rich Bennett 31:35
Right? 

Susan Hensley 31:36
a. Curious, right? I'm in my coaching practice, right? There's all these things you tell. It's like follow a little glimmer. If you do something you enjoy, figure out why. Spend time paying more attention to things you enjoy than what you don't like. Right. Our negativity bias is so huge we can spend our entire day figuring out things we don't like and 

Rich Bennett 31:54
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 31:55
how someone else should change or they should change. When you follow what you like. Rather, it's, you know, sit because we're recording this in wonder right there. It's how it feels cozy to be in the house or right, whatever it may be. Or when the sun comes out, you start paying more attention to it, like give you those little glimmers of joy or just make you feel good for a minute and you write them down or you capture them. You start to build those small things in really makes a big difference. So I was doing a lot of work around that, and then when I found the art by accident, once again, it's not about creating art, it's using art. 

Rich Bennett 32:33
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 32:33
Very privately. It really sort of snowballed. And yeah, to your point, that's how I ended up writing the book. That's how I ended up doing all the other things, because it's just one more tool that works for some people, right? 

Rich Bennett 32:49
Right. 

Susan Hensley 32:50
All different. And it's but I think we all have a creative impulse. I know we do. And we all love play. I've yet to see, you know, any animal, any person who doesn't just enjoy a little bit of play. It looks different for different people, but. 

Rich Bennett 33:06
Got to play. I'll be in 

the thing, actually. 

Cause I hear this from a lot of adult. 

But what do you say to the ones that just say, Oh, no, that's only for kids. I'm. I'm an adult. I'm too old. That's nonsense. 

Susan Hensley 33:31
You know, I. I have found it best to just say, you know, I hear you. I'm just curious. When you were a kid. 

Rich Bennett 33:41
Mm hmm. 

Susan Hensley 33:42
What did you love to draw? So I actually come out with just a few questions like because I will tell you everyone, I have yet to meet someone that if I say, Hey, think back like, what did you do to when you were a kid? People have answers. They either have a a shape. I mean, it's and people are like, I draw a rabbit, I drew a car. I drew it's like somewhere that question elicits a response. Even if you didn't draw it, it's like someone says it. And then it's like, do you like it? Like when you were a kid, what were your favorite colors, People? What do kids ask you? You. 

Rich Bennett 34:19
Yeah, 

Susan Hensley 34:19
Time what their favorite colors are. I don't know why that's such a thing, but people can remember. They may not know now what their favorite colors are. They may feel like they have to have a sophisticated color, but most kids, like when you say as a kid, what color did you look? People are like, Oh, I love pink or blue or whatever, right? 

Rich Bennett 34:37
right. 

Susan Hensley 34:38
People have a color. I try and go down that path and say, you know, when you think about who you were and you did that, could you see drawing those images with those colors for 5 minutes, would that be at all? But and, you know, depending on where we're working with it, if it's at all intriguing, because as they are remembering what they used to draw a tree or whatever, but people draw trees like Christmas trees, I think we're like a thing. Little kids learn to draw right with the triangles. 

Rich Bennett 35:09
Oh, yes. I've gotten a lot of them this year. 

Susan Hensley 35:12
Okay, so you get it. So it's like, okay, if you're willing if you're just at all curious and curiosity, I think it's the way with resistance, because the truth is. People can either be intrigued or not. They can either want to try or not. But this isn't an area, you know, I think as adults, we feel or can feel like forced or should or what 

Rich Bennett 35:38
Right. 

Susan Hensley 35:38
were the. So I try and create a space that if you are curious. 

Rich Bennett 35:44
You're listening in on the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

Terry Trouyet 35:51
Hey, Terry. Troy station coordinator here at 90 11w HFC inviting you to support us right now at UHF. c91 1.0 RG Your support keeps us playing your favorite tunes and bring you the latest campus news to donate. Right now. Be a part of our vibrant community. UHF C 911. org and thanks. 

Susan Hensley 36:13
Let's play for 3 minutes. You don't have to show anyone. You don't have to do it again. And then sometimes when I when we talk about it as a group, I would say 95% of the people who do the exercise have great words for it. Like, I felt free. I felt silly in a good way. Time flew by. I didn't know how much I needed this. I had a person who didn't know it was an executive strategic planning. I was like the entertainment. After lunch, you know, I have a bunch of people who start, like, really stressed and they're doing. Five year plan. And I'm like, Let's play with art for an hour. But one of the women went over there because I loved it, because I was a twin. And these are just mine. I did not. I mean, she sounded so funny and she's, you know, very high up in organization and managing a big function, a pretty serious function in this organization. She goes. It was awesome because the crayons I had were just mine and I put my arms around. And people are looking at her like, where is this coming from? And then she said, you know, I'm a twin and you don't know what you don't know about your. 

Rich Bennett 37:21
Right. 

Susan Hensley 37:22
Co-workers and people like, oh, and she was and I she would always my twin would be like, they're taking my colors. And it was so funny. But then so she was talking about how freeing that felt, how nice it was to have something that was just theirs. And that actually goes back to the other woman I was telling you about. But there was a gentleman in that same workshop, and like I said, people were by and large saying really positive things because, you know, I think I felt silly in a bad way. And I said, Oh, you know, do you want to share any sort of thought about it is like, you know, maybe it's because I was like an only child and my parents were older and I felt like I just couldn't play. But it made me feel like, okay, you know, you can do the other exercises, but just be aware or draw in the next exercise size. You know, whatever brought up it may have brought up some loneliness. So I would say the vast majority, 90 plus percent, really get a kick out of it when they try if they tap into it. Just I mean, all I'm asking is that you'd be a little curious for a few minutes, right? This is not a scary, scary ask, but it is very valid that it's just can bring up some uncomfortable feelings and you can shut yourself down, you know, and give yourself sort of the chance to be curious. You know, if I'm there, I'll ask a few questions like what would about it? And that's sort of what he said. You know, I think it's May because I was sort of lonely. My parents were, you know, older, and I think they always thought I was sort of silly, Like they may have struggled with that child energy because it wasn't, you know, adult energy. 

Rich Bennett 39:04
And you work a lot with businesses with the book as well. 

Susan Hensley 39:07
I wasn't going to. It's very funny because I would not have thought that would resonate. And I have done some. And I went into one of the first ones with a lot of trepidation, like where I thought it would fit is in the the wellness space, the self-discovery. 

Rich Bennett 39:25
Right? 

Susan Hensley 39:25
In a few workshops like at Wellness Spa or Retreats. But then I've done a few corporate things, and I think where it comes from is innovation, right? We hear innovation, innovation, innovation. Well, innovation is not A to B to C, right? That's a process after the innovation is 

Rich Bennett 39:45
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 39:45
when you're marketing and selling or making the innovation. Innovation is all about curiosity, creativity, right? People always looking for what is the the magic. And you, you know, decidedly we love the stories. It's like the unmet need. It's very hard to be told. You sit there, you come up with an unmet need or innovate. Oh my gosh, that's the least inspiring thing ever. So curiosity, creativity, playing with mistakes, doing something sort of badly, if you will, with no outcome. That's where innovation comes from. Innovation does not come from people sitting in a boardroom or around a table. So I think that's where some of the appeal is for corporations. I have an H.R. background. I've been talking to some H.R. organizations about how much you need creativity with AI and with, you know, it's can be such a great tool, but it can take out so much human that if you're having humans working in a function, they better be really creative, really agile, not building on what the process or the algorithms telling you, right. Your secret sauce is going to be your your own unique ability to think creatively. And you know, all these jargon about think outside the box cracked me up because that just becomes a scary should. You're like, I don't even know. I's in a box, right? Playing with art or playing. 

Rich Bennett 41:17
Yes. 

Susan Hensley 41:17
You're not even in a box. So, like, don't even start in the box. Like, the whole phrase makes me laugh. It's like, well, maybe just don't be in the box to start with and see 

Rich Bennett 41:29
I like. 

Susan Hensley 41:29
what the heck happens. 

Rich Bennett 41:31
And I think this especially when it comes to businesses and entrepreneurs and all of that, 

I think with your book, 

would be better for them to read this and use this, use everything that you're talking about because they're using their mind. There have to be creative versus say, and you see this a lot people doing vision boards because the vision board, you're looking at the magazine. And to me, that's putting the images in your head, whereas you're not thinking of it more creatively. I think more businesses and entrepreneurs would definitely get more use out of your book. 

Susan Hensley 42:12
Yes, 

Rich Bennett 42:12
Yeah, 

Susan Hensley 42:12
I have done vision board and it's an interesting. So if you think there's like scrapbooking where you're just chronicling 

Rich Bennett 42:18
Yeah, 

Susan Hensley 42:18
the past 

Rich Bennett 42:18
right, 

Susan Hensley 42:19
and vision board and you're setting goals, right, that almost becomes like, 

Rich Bennett 42:23
Right. 

Susan Hensley 42:23
sure, what you're going to create. What I think is interesting about art journaling, because all these things, you know, tie in there's a place is it's you tapping into to you to your set, not society putting things you're just like, hmm I want to like I said, the feed in the paint was an extreme, but like, I want to play in this manner with it. And because it's just play, right. I'm not monetizing this. I'm not selling this. This isn't my ten year plan. My five year plan. I did not the beach house, whatever is on the vision board. Right. 

Rich Bennett 42:56
Uh huh. 

Susan Hensley 42:57
This is just in this moment how I'm feeling. And if I want to draw a little screaming faces or I want to draw a whole page of hearts, or I just feel like using green and purple together, even though green and purple don't go together, I'm just going to scribble green and write whatever it is. It's uncontained and it goes back to that, that. Woman. It became a client I was telling you about, Where? It's like I've always had rules. I didn't realize how many rules I follow as an adult. I look for the rule before I do anything, 

Rich Bennett 43:30
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 43:31
right? I mean, even what I mean. I love to walk and walk in nature, but, you know, now it's like this is how you need to walk for optimal health. And this is right. It's like we we're always optimizing everything, which is in general great. But I think it can get us to be like, I have to find out how to do everything better, like 

Rich Bennett 43:51
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 43:51
to be the best walker. I mean, silly things, right? 

Rich Bennett 43:55
Well, it's not really silly. 

Susan Hensley 43:57
But we know how to walk as humans. I mean, it it is and isn't silly. And we can get some bad habits. So I'm not saying that, but it's just being aware that we're always telling ourselves we need to improve. 

Rich Bennett 44:09
But when you're. 

Susan Hensley 44:10
It starts with that awareness. 

Rich Bennett 44:11
Yeah, but I think it's something you mentioned earlier in the beginning about putting your feet in the paint. 

Susan Hensley 44:17
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:18
So when you're walking, you're seeing, you're hearing. You're not really feeling. But what if you walk barefoot? Feel the nature underneath you. 

Susan Hensley 44:28
Oh, absolutely. 

Rich Bennett 44:29
If you step is something that a cow left, so be it. You know, but still, it just I think when you use well, like using all your senses, which I think you're also teaching in the book. 

Susan Hensley 44:41
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 44:43
You're opening up your mind to so much more. 

Susan Hensley 44:47
Well. So you're out. 

Rich Bennett 44:48
And enjoying so much more. 

Susan Hensley 44:50
Because it's moving you into the the present and you're not. 

Rich Bennett 44:53
Yeah, 

Susan Hensley 44:54
To your point, stuck in it. So you're doing something that's that's tactile. You're using your senses, You're seeing it. If you use glue, stick, paint, anything like that, all that has a smell, crayons have a very distinct smell. Everyone sort of remembers that. And to your point, it's moving you into the moment and you're using all of your your senses and you're not just playing whatever story you're playing in your head at that moment, which 

Rich Bennett 45:20
right. 

Susan Hensley 45:20
in many cases isn't even about being in the moment right? It's about what just happened or what's going to happen or what you're going to have for dinner, right? 

Rich Bennett 45:29
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 45:30
About 4:00. That's what a lot of people start thinking about. 

Rich Bennett 45:34
I think 4:00 I start thinking about I got to start cooking dinner, so. 

Susan Hensley 45:39
Well, exactly what am I making for? 

Rich Bennett 45:40
What am I making? Yeah, exactly. So there's some other things I want to ask you outside of the book, but is there anything you would like to add about the book besides telling everybody why they need to buy it and where they can buy it? 

Susan Hensley 45:53
You can buy it anywhere. You buy books. It's available online. My website has it. So if you're curious, I have a free downloadable PDF about how to get started. It's a few simple steps. It's also got like how you contact me or link so you can go to that too. I think would start. I mean, I've. Before you even invest in the book books. Not expensive, but play with the concept. Right. If you have a couple of colored pens or colored pencils and I'll just. Just play with it. And if it strikes a chord at all, I would say follow that. That's really why I wrote it, right, is just to try and give people another option toward getting a little more creative, a little more play in their life. 

Rich Bennett 46:40
So it's available on Amazon. 

Susan Hensley 46:43
Absolutely Amazon Barnes and Noble although those places. 

Rich Bennett 46:46
So those of you listening, you know what I'm going to tell you after you purchase it, make sure you leave a full review and then purchase a copy for a friend or family member, because you're going to want to keep it because you're going to keep going back to is like, Wait, man, I do this and I do that coaching. What got you into coaching and how long you've been doing that, really? 

Susan Hensley 47:07
So I've been doing that about 25 years now. Now, it started in my 

Rich Bennett 47:13
really? 

Susan Hensley 47:13
corporate job where I was doing career coaching and exact. 

Rich Bennett 47:16
Okay? 

Susan Hensley 47:16
And that's where I got trained. I shifted over to life transition coaching. When I got really curious just about you know, we go through some sort of transition every 

Rich Bennett 47:28
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 47:29
12 to 18 months, the research shows. Right? There's some really once again. 

Rich Bennett 47:32
Every 12 to 18 month. 

Susan Hensley 47:33
Believe it or not. Yes. 

Rich Bennett 47:34
Wow. 

Susan Hensley 47:35
Now because it's not always what you think. Lots of times we think it's it's a job or it's empty nest. It's a relationship 

Rich Bennett 47:41
Right. 

Susan Hensley 47:41
starting. So it can be any of those. There's a bunch of areas of our life that we go through transitions. If you have a loved one somewhere in a circle whose health changes, right, that's a transition. I mean. Right. Rather. 

Rich Bennett 47:56
Okay. 

Susan Hensley 47:57
So if you think of it. But we in typically we ignore some of those or we know what's going on, but we're not recognizing how much that's shifting us. So when you think of or you physically move, I don't know how often you move, but boy is moving. Jarring at first right You don't it rather you're moving stay together. You're moving cities. 

Rich Bennett 48:19
Oh, okay. I thought you meant me getting up out of my ass and getting. We're moving, 

Susan Hensley 48:24
No physically moving. So those 

Rich Bennett 48:26
right? 

Susan Hensley 48:26
are the kinds of transitions, right? There's there's big transitions. You know, a partner, you know, getting a partner, losing a partner, having a child, empty nest. There's all that. Losing a job. Getting a job. There's those. Then there's all these others that are impacting us. And what happens is we can get really stuck, right? Transitions have three phases. There's the ending that we have to sort of acknowledge, because a lot of times you keep clinging and you have to find a new, new routine or 

Rich Bennett 48:51
Right. 

Susan Hensley 48:51
you're. Sort of denying it. Then there's that middle, which we people typically hate because it's sort of messy. It's like you don't get to through the stage and you'll say, like, why is this still hard? In many cases, you beat yourself up rather, you know, even if you're excited for the change, it doesn't tend to fall. And then there's whatever that new beginning is, which once again, you may be excited for, but may not be everything you think. So that's sort of the life transition coaching is to help people so you don't get stuck in one of those. And as humans we tend to like one of those phases more and dislike the others, which of course means we can sort of get stuck or rush into something new versus if you're working with someone figuring out how to process this and not just jumping in the next thing or we've all had friends who you're like, Gosh, they need to move on. I'm watching them get stuck and not grow, right? And you either jump too soon and too fast and not process all that or you can get stuck. So the work I'm doing now on transitions and is really all about how to help people grow through transitions and in essence not get stuck. 

Rich Bennett 50:07
A you argue with people anywhere because you can do it very. 

Susan Hensley 50:10
And you can do it virtually. Exactly. And it's interesting, even in Austin, so many people like to do things virtually just because. 

Rich Bennett 50:16
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 50:17
Traffic. And I think we can all although it's great to see people in person you feel the energy. I still I love that. No, it's all now. 

Rich Bennett 50:27
So how do people get in touch with you? Let's say somebody here, Marilyn, somebody in England, Canada or whatever, 

Susan Hensley 50:33
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 50:33
says, Oh, I need to get Susan because I need a transformational coach. How to get in touch with you? 

Susan Hensley 50:39
Just my web page, contact me. I get those and I'll email you from my personal email at that point and we'll get connected. 

Rich Bennett 50:46
What's the website? 

Susan Hensley 50:47
Susan Dash Hensley Tor.com. So I've tried to keep it all simple. Susan. 

Rich Bennett 50:52
I'm glad you mention that, Dash. Glad you mention, 

Susan Hensley 50:56
The dash is really. Yes, It's very hard to not these days when you go do that, have a dash or something 

Rich Bennett 51:03
right. 

Susan Hensley 51:03
is the dash. 

Rich Bennett 51:04
So when you were growing up? Well, growing up. But in school. Is that something you always wanted to do was be a coach? 

Susan Hensley 51:12
You know, I mentioned my first career was actually as a journalist 

Rich Bennett 51:17
Journalist 

Susan Hensley 51:17
in sixth 

Rich Bennett 51:18
Right. 

Susan Hensley 51:18
grade. I won an essay contest. You know, this is what happens when you're a little kid. I won a countywide essay contest and I got a $200 savings bond. And my picture in the paper right as a kid. Right. Nothing, Nothing greater. Right. It's like, Oh, And then 

Rich Bennett 51:34
I'm 

Susan Hensley 51:34
we. 

Rich Bennett 51:34
a celebrity man. Yup. 

Susan Hensley 51:37
Money. I got I got money. And so that sort of starts the whole. And this is funny. I go around saying I'd be a writer, and because writing sounds great and people like, Well, writers don't make money. Harry, what are you going to write? Like, Well, I don't know. I'm sixth grade, right? You know, who knows? But I then sort of moved into to journalism, and I did that first. 11, 12 years of of my career and then really switch because life transition 

Rich Bennett 52:10
Right 

Susan Hensley 52:10
as a child took a long time to get right pregnant. My husband ah like I was anchoring six and 11:00 news I wasn't getting home till midnight. 

Rich Bennett 52:18
now. 

Susan Hensley 52:19
Yeah, I was running newsrooms and I loved it, right? It was a great lifestyle because my husband was in the business until we had a child. And in that moment, something I loved and had gone to school for God. I mean, in terms of the motivation of it, I didn't quit right away. It took a while to do that. But then when I moved over into sort of the corporate side, I actually got into shrinks. I was also run some newsrooms and mentored younger people, and that's where I started. And I got some really good training and certification in how to coach career development, executive coaching. And then I've taken that, which I still do some of and really made it more, more personal, you know, because the person you're coaching at work, that's what you notice isn't just the worker, right? You're coaching the whole person. You're coaching people who may not be flourishing in their job because they really wanted to be an animator or but their dad told them they needed to be an accountant. Right. And so you're wondering why they're not flourishing because they freakin hate being an accountant. And there's 

Rich Bennett 53:23
Right. 

Susan Hensley 53:23
no amount of career coach, I mean. Right. And that's where I started to notice at a point when you're trying to help people succeed in their careers where they were in wrong careers sometimes, or how they ended up there because of the need to, you know, it's legitimate. We all do need to make a living, but sometimes we end up so far from what we actually love just because we can or just because we were good with numbers or it seemed like a secure profession doesn't mean you need to do it for 30 years. 

Rich Bennett 53:57
Two things that you said there. And this is something I especially when my daughter and son were in school, always told this to them and their friends and and still preach it today. When you said you were working in the news, you loved it. 

Susan Hensley 54:10
Loved it. 

Rich Bennett 54:11
loved that job. 

Susan Hensley 54:13
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 54:13
But then you also mentioned how other people are like the accountant hate their job, but they were told to do it. And I think that is something that I was taught that my father always told me, If you're not having fun at your job, you know, love it. It's time to find something different because it's just going to bring on the stress. And don't your people always say, go for the money? Go for the money? Guess what? Money brings you more stress. You know, if you're not loving your job and not having fun. Now it's time to look for something new. Become an art journal or. 

Susan Hensley 54:53
Right. And there's there's like these middle paths. But what happens if you're doing something purely for the money that you hate? It becomes its own trap. And so I think as you work with people, it's creating other outlets, right? And other ways to find purpose so that you can realign. I'm going to do this till I can do something else, but I need other outlets. I need to view it differently. Right. So many times it's a viewpoint and once again, the creativity that comes out with art journaling can be really helpful. And what are those viewpoints? Because if I just said you think of another point of view or think of how this can make you happy, frees up your own. 

Rich Bennett 55:31
Right. 

Susan Hensley 55:33
And you get into magical thinking versus what I'd call more creative, but like practical thinking. 

Rich Bennett 55:39
Okay, so now, I don't know. I got to look at some of these questions that some of the people sent me. 

Susan Hensley 55:48
Oh, okay. 

Rich Bennett 55:50
All right, Well, here's a good one. This just came from Charlotte Winder. What was the best and worst advice you were ever given? 

Susan Hensley 56:00
Oh, I love this. I will tell you. And it's happened recently, so it's recent advice. The worst advice I got and people were so well-meaning was when I was leaving a great job with people I loved to do nothing. And they all. Not all One or two people said, you will go crazy. You need to have a plan. You will go. And that got in my head and I got so scared. And thank goodness I had the art journal. So it was well-meaning advice and people gave it to a lot of folks. Changing jobs or at a retirement age, which is you can't just retire, you will go crazy. And people actually say it like that. You have to have a plan. You need to know what you're going to do. So. Terrible advice. 

Rich Bennett 56:51
Right. 

Susan Hensley 56:52
Best advice. And it actually came from my dad because I was believing that story. And I said, you know, I need to quit. But I got to tell you, I'm really scared. So I don't know what I'm going to do. You know, I can come up with part time work and other things. And he goes, How could you know? How could you know what you want to do when you're working 60 hours a week and raising a family? 

Rich Bennett 57:21
Wow. 

Susan Hensley 57:22
Mike drop from my dad. Sarah 

Rich Bennett 57:25
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 57:25
And. And I, I mean, I've had some really great parenting advice and some bad parenting advice, too, but that one is so recent because it goes to headspace and it goes to life transition where unwilling to be in that messy middle. People could see I was going to have an ending and they got worried for me. They care about me. I mean, these people saw a person with a lot of energy and a lot of drive and they, you know, so it was it was they thought they were being kind. They thought they were being helpful. So I want to be really careful. But it got in my head a little bit, as it should. And my dad just freed it with like, how in the world could, you know, when there is no space to just see who you are in that messy? You know, he didn't use the phrase messy metal. He is not a certified life coach. A 

Rich Bennett 58:18
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 58:18
great dad, but it was such good advice about giving yourself space and taking the pressure off. 

Rich Bennett 58:30
That's pretty damn deep to. 

Wow. Okay, so what is something about Susan that a lot of people don't know about that you're willing to share? 

Susan Hensley 58:48
Interesting because as people get to know me, I share quite a bit. But so this is something I don't talk a lot about. I've been to about 95 countries. I'm. 

Rich Bennett 59:00
When that white. 

Susan Hensley 59:02
I'm a passionate, passionate traveler. And when I travel, it's a it's an odd feeling. I can be very quiet. I'm pretty talkative, right? You and I've been. When going strong and when I travel, I get this deep sense of just being part of the world. I was most recently very isolated area in the Amazon of Peru, sort of between Bolivia and Western. 

Rich Bennett 59:30
Wow. 

Susan Hensley 59:30
In Brazil and was so far from anything. It was like a flight, an hour bus ride to our boat ride. And I find how quiet I become. And I just feel part of this big world, right? I didn't know about the fires in L.A. Head Start. And you realize. 

Rich Bennett 59:50
This was recent. 

Susan Hensley 59:51
Yeah. I mean, really, this was about. Ten days ago. 

Rich Bennett 59:54
Wow. 

Susan Hensley 59:55
And what I love about it is I travel very simply. But it's this sense of. Connection. Right. These researchers. I went to a research place in the Amazon and did like we helped them with research projects like traps and bugs and did a few things like that. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:16
Oh, wow. 

Susan Hensley 1:00:17
Yeah, it was really cool. I don't talk a lot about that. I don't post. About it. I mean, some people know I travel just because I feel like travel and social media has become this thing of like, take I take very few pictures. It's funny. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:32
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:00:32
My mom will always be like, send me a picture of you and I won't my. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:35
You enjoy what you're doing. 

Susan Hensley 1:00:37
Yeah. Very. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:37
don't need 

Susan Hensley 1:00:39
Yeah. And so that's not something that that pops out. So I don't know if that answered your, your listeners 

Rich Bennett 1:00:44
to. 

Susan Hensley 1:00:44
question, but I. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:45
Oh, no, that was my question. 

Susan Hensley 1:00:47
Oh, that was yours. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:48
Yes, 

Susan Hensley 1:00:48
I don't 

Rich Bennett 1:00:49
I. 

Susan Hensley 1:00:49
tend to talk about that a lot. Okay. 

Rich Bennett 1:00:51
That was my art that blew me away. 95 countries. Because one of the things I when I hear about people that travel to different countries. This is a pet peeve of mine. And God, I hope I hope you don't get mad at me because I have a funny feeling you try it. But I've always said whenever you go to different countries and even different states here, you have to try the cuisine from that area. 

Susan Hensley 1:01:17
Oh, yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:18
Okay, so you had. 

Susan Hensley 1:01:20
No. Well, I end up going places that are so off off the beaten path, you don't have a choice. I 

Rich Bennett 1:01:27
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:01:27
went. Really, really clear. 

Rich Bennett 1:01:30
Yeah. You can't get fast food where you go. 

Susan Hensley 1:01:33
Where 

Rich Bennett 1:01:33
Oh, 

Susan Hensley 1:01:33
I 

Rich Bennett 1:01:33
yeah. 

Susan Hensley 1:01:33
was in Peru. Now, I will tell you, there are places like I'll take some Pepto milk because your stomach, it can be hard. So I will absolutely do that. The local cuisine. But some of it is so different now. The one thing I won't do. We lived inside with my company. I was in Hong Kong for a couple of years working with the business unit there and so traveled extensively through Asia. One thing I won't do. So when I was in China would eat Chinese food and there was like a snake soup, I would eat all that. What I don't do is always go to a night market. And there were like crickets that had been fried. And I was with a local guide and it's like, Should we do this? Because would you eat that at home? She goes, You know, that's like a tourist thing to eat it. And she goes, That would make you sick, you know, eat the dishes. And so I've gotten some pretty good advice about you want to be a little careful in certain countries about that food from the street vendors or the intel. I mean, try the local cuisine for sure. And like I said, I did lots and lots of business trips into China and pad snake and many other things, but her advice was so good. It's like so. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:42
That's good advice. 

Susan Hensley 1:02:43
Throwing a cricket at home and eating them like no shoes. I don't think that make you feel good. Like you want to see something tomorrow. So I definitely eat the local cuisine. I take some little Pepto tablets proactively just to try and help me. So I'm adventurous, but I'm also. 

Rich Bennett 1:02:59
Mark. 

Susan Hensley 1:03:00
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:01
I never thought about that. Now, if that was crickets in a restaurant, I would try it. But I never thought about getting stuff from the street vendors. 

Susan Hensley 1:03:09
In some countries, the street vendors like Singapore. I want to be careful with things with countries know where the country is, unlike 

Rich Bennett 1:03:17
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 1:03:17
the developments, get with water. If you are purely in bottled water and you're having to brush your teeth with bottled water. I would not 

Rich Bennett 1:03:26
Now 

Susan Hensley 1:03:26
do a street cart of of even a juice. Right. If you really don't have any if the water is just known, unless it's bottled or 

Rich Bennett 1:03:36
there. 

Susan Hensley 1:03:36
purified. Be really careful because it's actually that's what tends to get you at something in the preparation and yeah that it hasn't been what it was washed in water that wasn't as clean as our bodies are used to here in the US. 

Rich Bennett 1:03:52
So out of all the places you've been to, what was one of your favorite meals that you had? 

Susan Hensley 1:03:56
Oh. A favorite meal. So the meal is going to be. Based on location. So the meal I'm going to tell you about is a location based meal. The food was fantastic. It was in by Victoria Falls in Africa and the falls were there and it was an old, old hotel and it was all local food and but it was. Really well-prepared. There was a fish. I like fish. So all felt really fresh. I was still drinking a little more alcohol at that, not more. I don't tend to drink now, so I. But it was a great cocktail. 

Rich Bennett 1:04:44
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:04:44
Great bottle of of wine and the falls. And it felt like such an adventure. And the moon was so full. So it was really I have found food for me because I don't describe myself. A foodie is very much about the time and the place. And then if it tastes right, really good, but it was less the actual food and more the the the. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:11
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 1:05:12
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:13
I. Okay. You know what you got to do now? 

Susan Hensley 1:05:15
What? 

Rich Bennett 1:05:16
You have to paint a picture of that. I mean, you just painted the picture in my head and. You painted a picture in their head. I mean, I got to be in the next book. 

Susan Hensley 1:05:28
Yeah. So, you know, what's interesting is because I do I'll get Travel magazine stuff because. 

Rich Bennett 1:05:34
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:05:34
Travel. So I do a lot of collage with that and it it is interesting how many images I have of. 

Not so much of of restaurants, but of like verandahs over rivers. It's and I recognize for me, I'm a person who's really drawn to like a bluff over it, Right. Some people like valley, some people like mountain tops. I. And I think if you play in the art world now, we're really going off. I recognized, though, that there's like, this medium height. It's like a bluff overlooking like a river or a valley that just really speaks to me. I feel very, very peaceful when I'm in that and I think why that meal stands out, because that was 2030. 2030. I mean, yeah, that's now 12, 13 years ago. And I remember the meals so clearly and the atmosphere. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:25
Wow. Now I got to get there. 

Susan Hensley 1:06:28
Yeah, I know. That was a great place. I've been very, very fortunate that I've worked in high I travel industries. In the now I'm able to I've found some other ways to to do some of this travel. Like I said, I'm going much more into out of way places and trying to do some of those little research projects 

Rich Bennett 1:06:51
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:06:52
and see what I can find out. 

Rich Bennett 1:06:54
So 95 countries is there. What country haven't you been to yet that you would love to go to? 

Susan Hensley 1:07:03
I can tell you I really want to go to Bhutan. We didn't get there. It is known. So here's what's interesting. It's known as one of the happiest countries on earth. Very, very isolated, very culture. We didn't get there in the years I lived in Hong Kong and tried to go last year and we had a very beloved older yellow lab. And I got a call. We were actually on the way there. We were in India. We were done half the trip and that he was sick and we wanted to be with him. Right. Ended up. So 

and but I've wanted to get back there and are not back there. I've wanted to get there because they only allow a couple tourists and you have to have a special permission. It's they've tried so hard to keep the culture, the culture in which unique that they're very careful about over tourism. And you have to know applications and all this stuff. So that's where I'd like to go, is Bhutan. 

Rich Bennett 1:08:00
I never even thought of that, that I'll have to look into that one. I mean, I got one country on my bucket list, and that's Iceland. 

Susan Hensley 1:08:08
Oh, excellent. 

Rich Bennett 1:08:10
I've never been there. I'm sorry. Oh, God. We get yelled at. And in England and Italy. If my family and my best friends are listeners. Yeah, I want to get there. See you guys, too. 

Susan Hensley 1:08:20
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:08:21
Susan, is there anything you would like to add before I get to my last question? 

Susan Hensley 1:08:25
No, this has been such a thorough I've never talked about these things. I've definitely never gone about the travel in that way. 

Rich Bennett 1:08:32
That's amazing. 95 countries. That is just. Wow. So what is the next big thing for Susan Hensley? 

Susan Hensley 1:08:41
So here's what happened, and excited about it, but I'm a bit unsure. I had someone say as the book, Hey, you should apply to be at TED speak. I'm like, No, I don't think that's my thing. But I was at a women's leaders. I was speaking at a women's leadership conference. This is in in the Northern California in the fall. And a couple of people were saying that I said is a word rape. Sometimes you go at these conferences, the panels will be like. Tell us what you're going to do differently as 

Rich Bennett 1:09:14
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:09:14
a result. I said, I have said no. Like two or three of you have asked me why I haven't done a TEDx or even applied. I said, I'm going to stop. Say no, I'll find one and apply. So that was in September. Anyways, it's a long process. I knew nothing about it, so I want to be really clear. This was like a surprise to me. Foundation near where I live and happen to still be taking applications. Life is funny that we're closing in one week. 

Rich Bennett 1:09:42
Oh, wow. 

Susan Hensley 1:09:43
What about what? I mean, it was so fast, sent it off, didn't hear anything then. And November, it's like, okay, you're one of 48 that we're going to interview for ten slots. Can you interview? So I interviewed, I found out I think December 23rd, I got one in the slot. So what's going to happen? And I'm not allowed yet to say where it is. It's it's there's this whole world out there I did not know about other than. 

Rich Bennett 1:10:07
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:10:08
Watching him. So I have that coming up on April 3rd. And I am choosing because the old me, right, who I haven't been for a bunch of years but you always go back to that person would be like, oh, you know, this has to be right, blah, 

Rich Bennett 1:10:27
Right. 

Susan Hensley 1:10:28
blah. Well, the new me, I'm trying to completely shinners like, okay, I did this. It's falling into really interesting place. Let's just see where it goes. Do not. Right. Get crazy and perfectionistic, right? I sent in an idea. I have basic speech. Let's, like, hold this loosely. This is not so. That's a really big personal goal for me. And I'm using my art journal to. To sort of play with that and process. But yeah, it came up once again, like, I'm not going to write a book. I told like three people that day, No, I no interest in doing a TEDx talk. And then I paid attention to what I was saying no to and thought about why are people asking me if to do one and I followed it and dang, if it didn't work out. Isn't that the universe saying that? Maybe do this? 

Rich Bennett 1:11:23
Yep. 

Susan Hensley 1:11:24
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 1:11:24
That means you're gonna have to come back going after you do the TED talk now. 

Susan Hensley 1:11:28
Yes, we will. We will see. I would love to, but I am Troy or I am committed to holding it loosely. How about that? 

Rich Bennett 1:11:38
So when you when you do it and if successful, because I know it's going to be successful, definitely me the link when they post it, send me the link for it. 

Susan Hensley 1:11:48
That I absolutely can do, because similar 

Rich Bennett 1:11:51
Yeah. 

Susan Hensley 1:11:52
to what I write the book, the whole concept of the talk is to try and be helpful rather than just like you and I been talking. It's like, Yeah, the goal. It's just I think I did it and didn't fully appreciate. And now all of a sudden in the last day or two, as I've told a few people, it's gotten scary. You know, it's interesting when you start to get other people hearing other people, you have to really check your reactions. It's like, no, it's not need to be anything more or less than what it's going to be. So. 

Rich Bennett 1:12:21
The thing is, you're going to be helping people when you do it. And that's that's one of the reasons I do this. I've mentioned it several times. It's a it's a huge reward. And it just it makes your heart. I always reference the Grinch. Your idea that his heart. So big and it makes you feel so good. Susan, I want to thank you so much. It's been a true honor. And those of you listening. Make sure you get the book. Art for your sanity. And actually after you read it and and do it, let me know. Email me. Leave me a voicemail, whatever. And of course, leave a review for Susan and let Susan know as well, because those feel good stories of how something helps you. That's what I love to hear. And I know Susan would definitely love to hear them, too. So, Susan, thank you so much. 

Susan Hensley 1:13:19
Oh, thank you. It's been absolutely terrific. Yeah. And I love the the feedback, I mean. Right. Because you do it to help. And if it helps or or if you have a question, it's just nice to to know that. 

Rich Bennett 1:13:31
Yes. 

Susan Hensley 1:13:32
You're reaching someone. 

Rich Bennett 1:13:33
Yes, without a doubt. 100%. Thank you. 

Susan Hensley 1:13:36
Thank you. 

Rich Bennett 1:13:38
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoy today's episode and learn something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with Rich Bennett. Com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care. Be kind and keep the conversations going.