Deborah Heiser On Creating Meaningful Connections Through Mentorship

Sponsored by Four Seasons Landscape & Construction Services

In this insightful episode of Conversations with Rich Bennett, Rich sits down with Dr. Deborah Heiser, an applied developmental psychologist, TEDx speaker, and author of The Mentorship Age. Together, they dive into the transformative power of mentorship, discussing its profound impact on personal and professional growth. Dr. Heiser shares her expertise on generativity, the significance of meaningful connections, and how mentorship transcends traditional boundaries. Rich and Dr. Heiser also explore her new book, which provides actionable insights into fostering intergenerational mentorship to create lasting legacies. Tune in to learn how mentorship can redefine relationships and help build a brighter future for all.

This episode is proudly sponsored by Four Seasons Landscape & Construction Services, a woman-owned Small Business Reserve (SBR) company with over 40 years of experience. Learn more about their sustainable landscaping and property services at fourseasonslandscapemd.com.

Deborah Heiser – – Speaker | Aging Expert | Coach | Author

Sponsor Message:

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Chapters

• 0:00 Celebrating 10 Years of the Podcast
• 1:00 Introducing Dr. Deborah Heiser
• 2:13 The Mentorship Age: Book and Audio Release
• 5:23 Defining True Mentorship
• 9:24 Misconceptions About Mentorship
• 13:29 The Power of Lateral Mentoring
• 16:32 Legacy Trees: The Impact of Mentors
• 21:22 Stories of Mentorship: Dr. Heiser’s Grandfather
• 29:41 Mentoring Through Small Moments
• 35:18 Mentorship in the Age of Technology
• 39:38 Lessons from COVID-19
• 47:28 Planning for Aging with Purpose
• 50:27 Life After 40: Pursuing Your Dreams
• 57:13 Final Thoughts on Mentorship
• 57:47 Closing Remarks

Transcript

Rich & Wendy 0:00
Hey, everyone is Rich Bennett. Can you believe it? The show is turning ten this year. I am so grateful for each and every one of you who've tuned in, shared an episode, or even joined the conversation over the years. You're the reason that this podcast has grown into what it is today. Together, we shared laughs, tears and moments that truly matter. So I want to thank you for being part of this journey. Let's make the next ten years even better. Coming to you from the Freedom Federal Credit Union Studios. Harford County Living presents conversations with Rich Bennett. 

Today, I'm going to get kind. 

No, no, no. The truth is. 

Rich Bennett 1:00
Thanks for joining the conversation where we explore the stories and experiences that shape our world. I'm your host, Rich Bennett, and today I'm honored to welcome Dr. Deborah Heizer. Dr. Heizer is an applied developmental psychologist, TEDx speaker, consultant and author. And I think also a podcaster, Correct? 

Deborah Heiser 1:22
I am not like you, but I. 

Rich Bennett 1:26
She is also the founder of the Mentor Project and an adjunct professor in the psychology department at SUNY Old Westbury with her impressive body of research on aging, mentorship and personal growth. Deborah has been quoted in major publications like The New York Times and Seattle Times and contributes to Thrive Global. Her latest book, The Mentorship Age, dives into the transformative power of intergenerational mentorship and how it could drive both individual and organizational success. So I am thrilled have her here to share her insights and experiences and talk about her new book, which, correct me if I'm wrong, came out December, right? 

Deborah Heiser 2:13
It. 

Rich Bennett 2:13
Or November. 

Deborah Heiser 2:14
The book was published, came out on November 13th, but the audio book came out in December under the 10th. 

Rich Bennett 2:22
Okay, well, you already answered one question I was going to ask if it was in audio form. 

Deborah Heiser 2:27
Yeah, it is. So for those who like to read with their ears while driving or working out or walking, it's ready. 

Rich Bennett 2:38
I take it you're self-published in. 

Deborah Heiser 2:40
No. Hmm. No, it's with Wiley. 

Rich Bennett 2:42
Really? 

Deborah Heiser 2:43
No. Major publisher. Publisher? Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 2:47
Yeah, because I know a lot of authors I have on. They say that if they're published that the publisher wants them to wait at least a year before they do the audio form. 

Deborah Heiser 2:57
No, not. 

Rich Bennett 2:58
I guess if you. Well, yours is like a guidebook, isn't it? I mean. 

Deborah Heiser 3:01
No. 

Rich Bennett 3:02
It's not a novel, 

Deborah Heiser 3:04
No, it's nonfiction. 

Rich Bennett 3:04
right? 

Deborah Heiser 3:05
So it's not a novel, but it's it's a book that's for it's it's business. It's self-help. It's really talking about how we can utilize mentorship. And I define it because I've been doing it for so long to really lay the groundwork. They're hoping it's going to really be the book on mentorship that's 

Rich Bennett 3:29
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 3:29
that's out there. 

Rich Bennett 3:31
I guess in that way it makes sense to bring it out right away as an audio book to. 

Deborah Heiser 3:36
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 3:37
Especially the self-help part. 

Deborah Heiser 3:39
Yeah, because people can access the information right away. I think a lot of people are audiobook readers and, you know, I think 

Rich Bennett 3:50
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 3:50
that they recognize that. 

Rich Bennett 3:53
Oh, yeah. Now, did you do it? Do it yourself or did you have some? I do too. Somebody else did a voiceover. 

Deborah Heiser 3:58
Thankfully, they had a professional. I think she did a really good job. So, yeah, she did a great job. I mean, she it's hard to do. It sounds like it'd be so easy, but they hired somebody to do it. 

Rich Bennett 4:11
Wait, wait a minute, Debbie. What do you mean, Thankfully? What's wrong with your voice? 

Deborah Heiser 4:17
I don't know her better. 

Rich Bennett 4:22
I guess we I guess in a way when you're because you're reading it, right. I mean, she's basically reading everything. You can't ad lib, I guess, in a book. 

Deborah Heiser 4:32
Yeah, you can't adlib. And you know, when you read, like now I should say when I read. You know, I'm not a professional. I'm just going to read it. She knows where to put the inflection. She knows where to make it. You know, she knows how to do it so that it actually sounds really engaging, whereas I might read it and be monotone or something like that. 

Rich Bennett 4:57
Now, has anybody contacted you thinking that it was you? 

Deborah Heiser 5:02
No, but I. I would imagine that if I get on to a podcast and somebody listens, they might wonder why my voice is different. 

Rich Bennett 5:14
I got a cold. 

Deborah Heiser 5:16
Exactly. 

Rich Bennett 5:17
Just trickle. 

Deborah Heiser 5:18
Wow, She sounds so much less professional than she did on that. But. 

Rich Bennett 5:23
So what actually inspired you to write the book and how did your personal or even professional experience shape its creation? 

Deborah Heiser 5:34
It really came from. You know, I was asked a year before I wrote the book if I would write a book on mentoring, and I didn't then because I was really enmeshed in the Mentor project, the the work that I was doing there. I was so busy getting that going and I finally a year later said, Sure, I'd like to do it. And the reason I was really into doing it at that point was because so many people who, you know, have been talking up mentorship incorrectly. You know, I truly think that my neighbor, when he walks his dog, thinks he's mentoring his dog. You know, it's used so liberally and it keeps people from really engaging. And what mentorship actually is, and it devalues that. So I wanted to really put out a book that defined mentorship the way it's supposed to be defined, and to talk about it in a way that will get people to really receive the benefits that we get from engaging in mentorship. 

Rich Bennett 6:31
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 6:32
And that's that's why I felt compelled to do it when I did. 

Rich Bennett 6:36
When I talk about mentorship a lot. And God, now you got me worried. What is what is the definition of mentorship then? 

Deborah Heiser 6:48
So here's what mentoring is from a mentor and mentee perspective, and there's different ways to look at mentorship. But I'll just tell you what the first definition is. And, you know, mentoring is something that we're built to do. We are by midlife. We should expect to want to mentor and give back. And so the first thing is generative and generative is a developmental emotional milestone that we should all reach by the time we're in midlife. And that means that we care for someone else without expecting anything in return. So anyone who's ever had a baby can relate to that. You know, the baby wakes up at three in the morning and you're not like, Oh, what are you going to do for me? You're going to like, make me a dinner tomorrow, you know, like you're not staying. I'm 

Rich Bennett 7:34
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 7:34
going to take care of you. You better do something for me. You do what you want to. You feel love. You feel joy. 

Generative is when you do that for somebody outside your family, you're you're taking a little bit of your expertise and saying, I want that to live on in somebody else. It makes us feel a sense of purpose. Youthfulness makes us feel like our footprint in the world, you know, is something that's there in matters. So that's generative. We need that. We also, from the mentees perspective, is we need somebody who's going to catch that information. You you can go and say I could say, Hey, Rich, I've got some great information for you. And you might be like, But that's not of interest to me. And it has to be that somebody says, Wow, I've been waiting for that information. Thank you. This is just what I was looking for and they want to take that on. So the next thing we need is to have intrinsic motivation. So often, you know, mentorship is required at work. Well, that's an extrinsic motivator if you think you're getting paid. If you're getting paid to mentor, you're not a mentor. If you're getting any kind of a reward or an award for it that you're expecting or you're not a mentor. 

Rich Bennett 8:46
No. 

Deborah Heiser 8:46
So likewise. 

Rich Bennett 8:47
Feel in the heart, right? 

Deborah Heiser 8:48
Exactly. You have to. It's like if somebody said, Hey, would you like to volunteer at a soup kitchen? And you said, Yeah, sure. 

Rich Bennett 8:54
Yeah, 

Deborah Heiser 8:55
You can feel great about it. Now, if I said you, Hey, Rich, why don't you go volunteer at Starbucks? You're going to be like, No, thank you. You're still giving out food and beverage to people. But 

Rich Bennett 9:06
right. 

Deborah Heiser 9:06
the feeling is different when you're doing it at a place where you expect to get paid versus where you said, I. I wanted to do this because I care and I I'm doing this from my own desire. So that's Intrinsic motivation. 

Rich Bennett 9:24
Okay. 

Deborah Heiser 9:25
Intrinsic motivation. 

Rich Bennett 9:27
Okay. I guess that's why, like with me, with my business, all my mentors are people that a lot of them are in different types of businesses. And even when I worked in corporate, I don't think I ever had a mentor that was in the same business. Same with. And I. I got a question about this one, and I hope I'm not doing this wrong. So I'm in the Lions Club here. I'm president of the Lions Club. I'm also our Leo Club advisor. Our Leo's are from the ages of 12 to 18. And then we have our cubs, which are from 5 to 11. We started a scholarship program this year for the Leo's and one of the 

qualifications is that one of the Leo's, which are 12 to 18, must mentor a cub. That. 

Deborah Heiser 10:23
If. 

Rich Bennett 10:23
Am I going about that? The wrong. 

Deborah Heiser 10:25
If it's a requirement, it's not mentorship. But don't think that that is saying. But however, that could be an advisor. That could be a coach. There's no there's nothing lesser with that role. It's just not a mentor. 

Rich Bennett 10:41
Okay. 

Deborah Heiser 10:41
So that's where we get that mixed up. You brought up an amazing point that no one else acknowledges ever, and that is that you said, I got my mentors from outside my organization. And that's because they had the intrinsic motivation. They wanted to help you. Either they liked you that you were their friend, or they saw some promise in you. Whatever it was. There was no sort of extra layer above you that said, you know what, I'm if I don't mentor somebody, I'm not going to I'm going to get a, you know, some kind of mark on my performance, a vowel that's negative or 

Rich Bennett 11:16
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 11:16
something like that. The none of that extrinsic motivation is there. So what you talked about is what I coined, lateral mentoring. Nobody was talking about this. This is a term that I coined after finding out that this is what we most often engage in. It is the most effective, it is the most impactful because the person that you mentioned who mentored you from another organization, he or she can only have a desire to see you succeed because there's no skin in the game for them. Other than that they're not looking 

Rich Bennett 11:52
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 11:53
to get recognized at your workplace. They don't care, you know, they only care about you. And likewise for you, you can feel vulnerable around them without worry. So I've seen this in the tech. You know, the founding of our country was all lateral mentors. Nobody was anybody's boss. They all had different expertise that came together. Every big tech thing was done from lateral mentoring. Nobody was anybody's boss any. Anytime you have any entrepreneurship that isn't a hierarchical environment, but mentorship is always talked about hierarchically. So that's where we get that mixed up. But so the first two in that are 

our generative ity, intrinsic motivation and then a meaningful connection. Now you've described that meaningful connection in the way that you mentor, right? Where you like somebody, they like you. That's what matters. We, I often see that, that is not the case in hierarchical work environments where, you know, somebody is assigned 

Rich Bennett 12:55
Really? 

Deborah Heiser 12:55
to somebody and they're like, I don't really like the person, but I'm afraid to tell anybody I'm going to go through with it. You know, this is my mentor, This is my mentee. And they they continue on with it. But you have to really like the person because that person is going to carry your message forward or, 

Rich Bennett 13:09
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 13:10
you know, you're going to be taking that, you know, trying to take someone's information. Either way, the next thing is that you have to trust and you describe that beautifully. You trust someone who's lateral to you. You can say to them, Can you show me how to do this? People are built to want to give back. So of course, they say. 

Rich Bennett 13:29
Right? 

Deborah Heiser 13:31
And so that trust is key. If you're in a work environment that's hierarchical, that's where the trust may be. Something where you say, I'm afraid that meant he's going to steal my idea, or I'm afraid that that mentor is, you know, I have to really not tell that mentor everything I don't know because I won't get promoted or I won't get a good performance developed. They'll think less of me if they know I don't know something. So that trust area in hierarchical environments is often a deal 

Rich Bennett 14:01
Uh huh. 

Deborah Heiser 14:01
killer. And finally, we need a goal. 

Rich Bennett 14:06
Yes, 100% there. Actually one of my mentors. He wrote a book on Ghost. That's why that's why he is one of my mentors. And actually, we've got it. Don't yell at me for this, but kind of men can you have a mentor? And they don't even know they're. They're your mentor. 

Deborah Heiser 14:26
Oh, that happens all the time. Yes. And that's because we. Think of 

Rich Bennett 14:31
Whew. 

Deborah Heiser 14:31
mentorship in 

Rich Bennett 14:32
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 14:32
this way. 

Rich Bennett 14:32
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 14:32
So, yes, 

Rich Bennett 14:33
Mm 

Deborah Heiser 14:33
you're probably helping all kinds of people and they just don't even know it. You know, they don't feel like you're their mentor, but 

Rich Bennett 14:41
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 14:41
it more often is that people say, Yes, this person mentored me. They never tell the person, thank you for mentoring me because, you know, they go on with their daily life. But you could have mentored a bunch of people and no one would ever know. And I'll give you an example of that. The Nobel Prize winner in chemistry from 2000. I always get it wrong. I don't know if it's 2012 or 2013. His name is Bob Lefkowitz. He was somebody was like, I don't know how I got here. I'm a mentor, but I and I've been mentored. But how did I get the Nobel Prize? Like, why me? And so he was like, I want to look at all the mentors and everybody around me. So he made what's called he called a legacy tree. And it looks just like an Ancestry.com tree, except it's with. His mentors and the mentors that he knew about. So he was at the center and it was everybody above him to the left and right of him and a little bit below him. And so Bob published this in a peer reviewed journal article, just like, you know, you would expect from a Nobel Prize winner that they they don't just think it they put it out there. So he did that. And then he went to a conference shortly thereafter and somebody came up to him and he said, Hey, Bob, I'm 66 degrees Lefkowitz. And Bob was like, What do you mean? And he said, Well, there's five people who've worked between you and me. And Bob said, Tell me what you're working on. And the guy told him and Bob was so moved because it was every it was what Bob had been working on, that his own words were being spoken by this person. Six degrees away from him who he had never met. So he got to see the impact of his work and how far out it got in in terms of degrees of Lefkowitz from him. Most of us don't make a legacy tree, so we have no idea who we've impacted. And. And. 

Rich Bennett 16:31
I like that idea. 

Deborah Heiser 16:32
It's not cool. 

Rich Bennett 16:34
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 16:35
Yeah. Like 

Rich Bennett 16:36
Yeah, 

Deborah Heiser 16:36
this 

Rich Bennett 16:36
I. 

Deborah Heiser 16:36
is. 

Rich Bennett 16:37
Wow. 

Deborah Heiser 16:38
To me, this is more impactful than like family lineage, you know, because you really get to see who's impacted you and who you've impacted. And it it's 

Rich Bennett 16:48
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 16:48
so moving because we all are intertwined, helping each other out in our, you know, life journey. And how nice when we can acknowledge that. So, yes, to your answer, you have mentored and you you know, you may have not even known it and you may have been mentored and not really known it. That's why. Lateral mentoring. If we can get that definition out to people and they can acknowledge when they're helping somebody that they mentor them, you get to have that feeling, that good feeling like I did this. It's so it's good for our health. 

Rich Bennett 17:24
All right. I feel good now because I had somebody else on and we were talking about this and I mentioned how somebody has been mentoring me, but they don't even realize they've been mentoring. 

Deborah Heiser 17:39
Yeah. Happens all the time. 

Rich Bennett 17:41
Yeah, actually, I've a few people come to think of it, because I always look, I look up to so many different people and I watch them like clockwork to see, you know, what they're doing. And I 

Deborah Heiser 17:55
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 17:56
just. I remember when I joined the Lions Club, I had like, Oh God, two or three mentors in the club. 

One mainly that taught me a lot about lions. He's the one that taught he a lot. He said, I want to help you out because one day you're going to be president of cougars. I'm like, Yeah, I don't think so. Now, the president for eight years. Nobody 

Deborah Heiser 18:23
I've come 

Rich Bennett 18:24
wants 

Deborah Heiser 18:24
off. 

Rich Bennett 18:24
to step forward. Oh, well, it is cool. I love it because 

I just I love it when people call me from the community and they need help. 

Deborah Heiser 18:35
Now. 

Rich Bennett 18:36
You know, And I mean, I don't like the fact that they need help, but I'm glad that I'm there for that they can reach out to. I love the fact that I'm building this Leo club in this club program. If we're the only one in our district that has one. 

Deborah Heiser 18:52
Wow. 

Rich Bennett 18:53
And so I'm building the model and I'm, you know, it makes me proud. And I'm also teaching these kids something. 

Deborah Heiser 18:59
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 18:59
Well. 

Deborah Heiser 19:01
They're learning. They're learning about mentorship through you. Lions Clubs are really anything that's civic minded, civic, you know, getting people civically engaged. Civic engagement is the precursor to mentorship. So like you're teaching the kids how to mentor. You know, you're saying, Hey, you mentor the next level. You're really teaching them how to mentor and how to become mentors and how to receive mentorship. A lot of people will say, No, no, no, no, I'm good. And they don't want to receive help from somebody or guidance. It's just as important to learn that as well. 

Rich Bennett 19:35
All right. I'm going to put you on the spot now. 

Deborah Heiser 19:37
Okay. 

Rich Bennett 19:39
So what's one of the greatest things you've learned from one of your mentors? 

Deborah Heiser 19:42
What's the greatest? What? 

Rich Bennett 19:45
One of the greatest things you've learned from one of your mentors who 

Deborah Heiser 19:48
From one of my mentors. Oh, my gosh. So my very first mentor was my grandfather and I was five. 

Rich Bennett 19:54
who 

Deborah Heiser 19:54
And I 

Rich Bennett 19:55
wrote. 

Deborah Heiser 19:55
will tell you this, and I didn't know that he was my mentor, but he took me out every Saturday morning. I was the oldest grandchild and it was in Des Moines, Iowa. And he would take me out on his errands. And I did not know this at the time, but he would drive me around and he would tell me all about the people we would pass. They'd be like, Oh, see, Mary, She's off to get her dry cleaning. And you know, she has a husband who, like is so, you know, hard on her. But she is a single mom who takes care of all of our kids, all these, like, outlandish stories. I'm sure you did not know any of these people, but the story that he the stories he would tell me is he would, you know, pass by these people was he would say to me, there's a story inside of everybody. You pass by people every single day and you don't know anything about them. So that hit me at five, you know. Oh, wow. So I could see somebody sitting on a park bench. And that's not a person on a park bench. That's a guy with a story. And I became a psychologist, you know, later on, I believe that there's a story inside of everybody. And it's a big story. It's one that could be as complicated today as, you know, the story is always complicated. But he would tell me all of this. And that was one of the biggest things that shaped me at a very young age were those drives around town with him. 

Rich Bennett 21:22
Do you share any stories like that in the book? 

Deborah Heiser 21:24
I do. I talk about my 

Rich Bennett 21:26
Okay. 

Deborah Heiser 21:26
grandfather because he was actually a really cool guy. He moved to Iowa from Baltimore and after the war, after World War Two, and to live with my grandmother. And he moved out there and the story goes, I don't know if this is actually true, this part, but was that it was right around when Kennedy was shot and he was really he was a Catholic guy and he did not like that Catholics were having a hard time out where he moved like they weren't exactly welcomed. And so he joined the NAACP and became the president of that in the Des Moines chapter and really worked on integration and making change happen. And so I would ride around town with him and, you know, we went to this place called Sambo's, which was a restaurant, a pancake restaurant, and they didn't want to serve us because he was the president of the NAACP. I didn't know that. I just knew that people were mean to us wherever we went. And I was. 

Rich Bennett 22:29
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 22:30
Buy it. 

Rich Bennett 22:31
Wow. 

Deborah Heiser 22:31
So I talk about him and how that made me see the world differently as a kid that everybody doesn't have to like me. I don't have to have lunch with everybody. But stick 

Rich Bennett 22:42
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 22:42
by your convictions no matter what, and know that everybody has a complicated story. And I do talk about that in the book. And he was my very first powerful mentor. 

Rich Bennett 22:55
Wow. Now it was. I hate asking this question, but is he still alive to where he can read your book? 

Deborah Heiser 23:03
No, he's long gone. But I wish that he could. And I wish that he could have known that. It took me until I was an adult to realize what a powerful mentor he was. And if everyone could see, you know, kind of like Bob Lefkowitz did by making the legacy, if everybody could see that. You know, if he I'm sure that parts of him saw in me the way that I was moving in my life was in a way that was shaped by him. I think that if we can. I didn't know to call him a mentor or mentor was a term is a term that we've kind of been using after, you know, like after the nineties. 

Rich Bennett 23:48
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 23:49
So it wasn't like that would even be be said. But I think that if we look at people who we think we've mentored or who we really care about and we think that, you know, we're imparting information, too, I think that if we see that they take that and do something with it, he would have definitely been able to see that I was carrying his knowledge within me, his values within me, his culture within me. That's really what he passed on to me. That is priceless. You know, that he but he would have been able to see that without having without me being able to articulate that, hey, you, my mentor. And I think if we're able to look at those that we we think we're mentoring or that we're passing on, we'll see them moving in a direction that will make us feel proud. They don't have to say it will feel good. 

Rich Bennett 24:40
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. When you told me that story, all I could think of was my father. 

Deborah Heiser 24:48
Tell me about him. 

Rich Bennett 24:50
Well, he my my father, I mean, he was great. He worked at Bethlehem Steel. He was a crane crane operator. Miserable job, But he loved it. He loved it because one of the things he always told me, he said, if your jobs are five, you don't have fun at your job. It's time to find a new job. But I think I got his I think I got his entrepreneurial spirit because he would get laid off a lot and he would start a business. And one of the greatest things he ever taught me, and I never had the opportunity to tell him this. When I joined the Marine Corps, my original, I quit high school my senior year like a dummy, and they told me I had to do something. So I was going to go into the Navy. That's my father was in the Navy, didn't really want to, but took the test. Everything was good. I was only 17, so of course they would have to sign the papers. I went up to get the papers. A buddy of mine took me up there. He introduced me to Gunny Jones, who was the Marine Corps recruiter. So to make a long story short, I came home with papers to join the Marine Corps and my father was livid. And he told me, he said, I am not signing these papers. You will never make it in the Marine Corps. You know what is wrong with you? I mean, he was going off and every time, of course, when I turned 18, but I think it was two days later, I was down on Parris Island. But I think about that every time I face a challenge. I hear my father in the back telling me I can't do it, and it makes me go and do it. And to me that I never looked at it this way. But guess that was him being a mentor to me in a way. 

Deborah Heiser 26:33
Yeah. You know, I we are all mentors in a way, to our children, but that's part of our job of of being parents. It's kind of like my mother in law always says to me, You don't get a medal for. For loving your children. You're supposed to. 

However, yes, we do receive mentorship from our parents in many ways. And you know what? Your dad, by you even going into the military, even if it wasn't his branch, it was the Marines. 

Rich Bennett 27:00
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 27:00
He'd be able to see, no matter what, that you were following in his footsteps in a way, and that you were following his. His, you know, wisdom. Right. You were you were accepting his values is what really what you did. And you could have said, oh, 

Rich Bennett 27:15
What? 

Deborah Heiser 27:15
I'm going to buck the system a little bit and go into the Marines. But you still followed his value. So that's really when we're looking at mentorship. A lot of people want to be able to be acknowledged for being a mentor, but we are in the actions of those who we mentor, and that is if we're able to see that and look for that, the gift is so profound because you get to know. It's kind of like It's A Wonderful Life, the movie where he feels like you have no impact in the world, Then he finds out what impact he did have. We get to experience that without having having to live through. You know, it's a Wonderful Life. It gives us that as a as a sort of a gift. 

Rich Bennett 28:01
You're listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. We'll be right back. 

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Deborah Heiser 29:41
You know, this one isn't to ask. Feel good, but it's very normal. This one's a very normal. So I would and this is a lateral mentoring example. I was in graduate school and and and imagine this. This is everybody every single day. I was in graduate school. And when you're in graduate school, you have to do what's called an externship. And that's where you go out and you work for very little money or no money, and you do a ton of work for people and you're scared the entire time because you want a good value at the end. So my colleague, my fellow student, called me one morning and she said, Hey, and she's whispering through her cell phone. And this was when cell phones were really expensive to use. So she called me and I knew, oh, I better pick it up. But it'll be quick because, you know, every it was probably a $10 call that she made, which was a lot of money to us then. So she called, she's whispering, 

Rich Bennett 30:36
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 30:36
and she goes, Hey, can you tell me how to do Cap is I know you know how to do them. I don't know them like you do. And that's the statistic I need for this project that we're doing. And if I don't get this project right, they'll probably fire me. And I, you know, this was a big deal for graduate school. So I said, okay. So I sat on the phone with her and I walked her through how to learn this form of statistic and incorporate it into what she was doing and finish her project. She did it. She got her project done. She moved on. I moved on. But that moment stuck with me because I remembered from that point forward, everybody who helped me when I called in a panic, needing help to finish something. So I mentored her in a very small way. But at that moment, 

Rich Bennett 31:21
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 31:21
it meant the world to her. And so that stuck with me. So was that a big one? That was profound and meaningful? I don't know. But I still take pride. And if a person calls me and asks for help, I'm going to help them. And that was that moment that it solidified for me that that made me feel good. I'm going to do that every single time somebody calls me. 

Rich Bennett 31:44
And as you say, and you mentioned it earlier, you know, for being a mentor, you know, you're not supposed to get paid. You're not supposed to get a plaque or anything, but it made you feel good. 

Deborah Heiser 31:52
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 31:53
And that's the biggest reward you can give from anything, I believe. 

Deborah Heiser 31:58
It's immortality. The rich, you know, a little piece of every one of us lives on in somebody who we have helped. We became a part of their journey in that way. So we don't need although it's helpful, I would suggest everyone to do a legacy tree. But you don't need that. Really. All 

Rich Bennett 32:17
I 

Deborah Heiser 32:17
you 

Rich Bennett 32:17
love 

Deborah Heiser 32:17
need to 

Rich Bennett 32:17
that. 

Deborah Heiser 32:18
know is, wow, I gave a piece of myself to somebody and it's living on in them. So every single person you've ever helped that has incorporated a bit of your knowledge, value, culture, anything within you, it lives on. You know, it's so powerful because around the holidays, especially. Think of the culture and value that you feel. You know, if you are doing something around the holidays, which I'm going to give you an example, I use my grandmother's handwritten recipe card for holiday meal, the Thanksgiving meal every single year. And if I miss anything on it, if I change anything, nobody will be happy. It's because it's the smells, it's the taste. It's 

Rich Bennett 33:01
Yeah, 

Deborah Heiser 33:01
tradition. And that came from her mother. My uncle came out to visit from Iowa and stayed with us and I made that meal and he was like, That's my mother's meal. And 

Rich Bennett 33:11
Well, 

Deborah Heiser 33:11
it was like so much like that little thing. I just cooked a dinner. So then I started 

Rich Bennett 33:16
yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 33:17
shipping the meal out to him at holiday time. So he. 

Rich Bennett 33:20
Oh, no. 

Deborah Heiser 33:21
And that. 

Rich Bennett 33:22
Did you really? 

Deborah Heiser 33:23
Yes. How can you not write like that? We 

Rich Bennett 33:27
is 

Deborah Heiser 33:27
think 

Rich Bennett 33:27
great. 

Deborah Heiser 33:27
mentoring has to be something like outside. But culture and value, think about it. You know, accounting. Are you ever going to remember an accounting mentorship? No, but. Religion has been passed down for centuries. The traditions, the holidays, they've been around for decades and generations. Those are the ones that matter to us. So when we can gauge in that if there's something in the holidays that makes you feel special, you know that you're probably mentoring or you're giving somebody some memory that's going to keep that's taking your value and inserting it into them. 

Rich Bennett 34:02
You know, something you said there just made me think because I know my parents, my grandparents recipes were always written down. Usually on a three by five index card. 

Deborah Heiser 34:12
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 34:13
Saved in the little recipe box. I'm wondering how many people have lost all these great recipes because either they were thrown, those things were thrown away, they never 

transcribed them to computer or whatever. Oh, wow. 

Deborah Heiser 34:31
Those recipe cards. Yeah. Those are. Those are legacy trees, those recipe cards. 

Rich Bennett 34:36
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 34:36
Think of all the people that have saved them. And and 

Rich Bennett 34:39
Oh, God. 

Deborah Heiser 34:40
how many legacy trees exist. And those get passed down generation to generation. You know, the same exact meal. So the smells every time are the same, the same traditions, the same way you gather around the holiday. It doesn't matter if new people come in, You know, some people exit. It goes on and on and on. 

Rich Bennett 35:00
Debbie, thank you so much. Because now what I'm going to have to do, I got to find my mother's old recipes. I have got to make something, 

but I got to do it with where I met my sisters, I guess just for the that aroma. 

Deborah Heiser 35:17
Yes. 

Rich Bennett 35:18
Because, you know, sometimes things your mom didn't make, things that didn't burn all the time. 

So I'm not going the burnt fish steaks or the hotdogs. That's a different story. So looking ahead, how do you see mentorship evolving in the next decade, especially in light of, you know, technology, technology advancements like A.I. and everything, and how, you know, even changing workforce dynamics. 

Deborah Heiser 35:50
I write about that in the book. You know. What you're doing right now is a form of mentorship. I call it modern mentoring. You know, when you're doing a podcast, when you're putting yourself out there in a way people are who follow you are meaningfully connected. You may not know them, but they will feel that connection from you. So is it as strong as an in-person one? Not really, but we've evolved. When mentorship came about, you know, technology didn't exist. Now we have that we can 

Rich Bennett 36:17
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 36:18
connect much more easily with many more people than we ever have. So I offers, you know, a modern opportunity for people to have conversations with people who've passed, you know, like the Holocaust has Museum has people who are avatars who can speak to people. One of the top executive coaches, Marshall Goldsmith, has a bot where it's only him. He's programmed everything in there to be able to answer, you know, questions from coaches about, you know, coaching. Those sorts of things are modern forms of mentorship that exist, that are different, that couldn't have existed before. So you're mentoring by doing a podcast. People who are blogging, people who are doing things, are doing a modern form of mentoring nowadays that for those who are accepting it, are saying, Wow, I've been looking for this, I needed this. I feel meaningfully connected to this person. That is a form of mentorship. 

Rich Bennett 37:26
So I guess you could say in a way. It's on the rise. 

Deborah Heiser 37:30
Absolutely. It's on the rise. We're becoming much more connected than we ever were. A lot of people will say, well, technology has made us live in a silo. No, it has not. As soon as the the. 

Rich Bennett 37:42
Brought us closer, I think. 

Deborah Heiser 37:43
I agree with you. You know, during COVID, the Metro project moved from 10 to 60 within six months. Mentors, you know, we have the top 1% expert. 

Rich Bennett 37:54
Wow. 

Deborah Heiser 37:55
And that was because of technology. We are I became connected with people all around the world. We became global during the pandemic because we were able to reach students in other countries. This is not something this is the silver lining to, you know, COVID, which was such a tragedy for for the world in many ways. But there was a silver lining in that people connected. In one example, and I talk about this in the book is during COVID, there was a massive desire to help. People wanted to help. 

Rich Bennett 38:30
Yes. 

Deborah Heiser 38:31
And there was somebody who was in Italy stuck there during COVID and couldn't get back to his family in Princeton. And he was one of the people who created a new ventilator that could be used around the world. He was using it from like spare parts and things like that, people from all around the globe. Stopped whatever they were doing of their works at their workplaces and got on board to help him. They had never met each other. These were all strangers. 

Rich Bennett 39:02
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 39:03
And so hundreds of people came together to use their expertise to create this, to make it so that people could survive. And so if you remember, Italy had a big they had a huge problem earlier than we had. And so it became a big way of connecting individuals around the world to do good things. So there's always a silver lining to everything. And I really do believe that we should ride the silver lining of mentorship to its fullest with this. 

Rich Bennett 39:38
I love that. Yeah, it's 

I think I remember hearing about that because my my best friend actually lives in Italy, and I think he mentioned something to me about that, if I'm not mistaken. 

Deborah Heiser 39:51
Yeah. 

Rich Bennett 39:53
She tells me all the time because I'd never made it over there yet, but I'll get there eventually. So with with the book, what's one key takeaway that you would like my listeners. Well, doesn't necessarily need to be have it have to be from the book. But you want them to remember about mentorship. 

Deborah Heiser 40:15
I. 

Rich Bennett 40:16
What would be the. 

Deborah Heiser 40:17
I want them to look to their left and look to their right. You're likely looking at a mentor. 

Rich Bennett 40:22
Ooh, 

ooh. 

Look in the mirror, too. 

Deborah Heiser 40:28
Yes. And you're looking at a mentor and a mentor. You're doing it all the time. Acknowledge it because you'll feel you'll feel good about it and acknowledge your mentor. If someone helps you, acknowledge them, just say thanks. 

Rich Bennett 40:45
You know what? I'm going to have to do that. I'm probably going to floor some of the people that are meant for me and they don't know it, but it's definitely going to happen. I'm going to see one today, actually. 

Deborah Heiser 40:57
What a nice holiday thing to do. Right? What's the better yet? 

Rich Bennett 41:00
Yea. Oh, I never thought about that. 

Deborah Heiser 41:03
Right. Make that your holiday thing that at the end of the year you think your mentors. 

Rich Bennett 41:10
I never thought about that. So before I ask you a couple other questions, is there anything you would like to add about the book besides everybody go purchase it, Make sure you leave for review after you read it or listen to it, because that's going to drive the algorithms up. You all know where I go with that. So just and then if you like it, buy it for somebody else too. But is there anything you would like that 

Deborah Heiser 41:35
I'd 

Rich Bennett 41:35
book? 

Deborah Heiser 41:35
like to 

Rich Bennett 41:35
I'm sorry. 

Deborah Heiser 41:36
send the book to your mentor and say thank you. 

Rich Bennett 41:39
Oh, God 

damn, You're good. 

You are giving me all kinds of ideas now. Wow. I Oh. Oh, my God. That was really, really flew. Oh, no. You know what? This is a great present. I'm going to have to do that. 

Deborah Heiser 42:04
There's no bigger gift. And this is part of what you get from the book, is that they're really we are all mentors. There's nobody who would read the book that would be like, I can't relate to anything. There is. You are going to find out how you're a mentor and you're also going to figure out who's been mentoring you. And this is something that is the biggest gift to us because once you have that, you all of a sudden it's like you get the you get all the feels, you know, you start to feel like, wow, you feel differently towards those around you who you've connected with. And it's a deeper feeling and it only deepens 

Rich Bennett 42:37
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 42:37
your relationships and makes them more meaningful. 

Rich Bennett 42:41
How this summer? What if somebody wants an autographed copy? How did they get that? Okay. 

Deborah Heiser 42:45
Ah. Ooh. You know, I'm happy If somebody wants to, I can send out. Here's one thing I can do. I can send out book plates for anybody who buys it. You tell me. I'm mailing you a bookplate if you want an autographed copy. I think I could work it out with you so that I could send you some books and you could give them through your podcast. I'm happy to do that. If they want to contact me, I'd be happy to work it out so they could get an autographed copy. 

Rich Bennett 43:11
What's a bookplate? 

Deborah Heiser 43:13
A bookplate is I don't have one to show you, but it's a little it's a sticker that goes inside the book. So I sign it and it gets put 

Rich Bennett 43:20
Oh. 

Deborah Heiser 43:20
right inside the book. So it's a signed copy. It's exactly the same as it would have been otherwise, but you put it where you want in the book. 

Rich Bennett 43:28
Sort of like what you see on guitars when you go to an auction. 

Deborah Heiser 43:32
Exactly. 

Rich Bennett 43:33
They just signed the shield. Okay. 

Deborah Heiser 43:34
Yes. Yes. So I can send you those if you'd like. If you wanted them personalized, I can send them to you however you'd like. Or if somebody reaches out to me and they'd like one for a book that they purchased, I'm happy to send one. 

Rich Bennett 43:48
And how would they contact you? 

Deborah Heiser 43:50
At Deborah Heiser at gmail.com. 

Rich Bennett 43:55
Okay. So I want to ask you about your podcasts. After 40 podcasts, how can you be doing a podcast called After 40 when you haven't hit 40 yet? 

Deborah Heiser 44:06
Nah, I'm 56. I'm way past. So. 

Rich Bennett 44:10
All 

Deborah Heiser 44:10
But 

Rich Bennett 44:10
right. 

Deborah Heiser 44:10
you know what? I started studying and aging when I was in my thirties. Well before my thirties, actually, I started in the field of aging. My grandmother, there was the funnest person on the planet, like literally, and she was like fashionable and amazing. And I went down to visit her when I was 20 and she wasn't her fun, fashionable self. She was grouchy and irritable. And I said to the person that worked at the independent living facility that she lived in, what's wrong with grandma? And they were like, Don't worry, we're going to fix her. And so it's like, what? How do you fix her? And she said, Oh, the medications she's taking for, you know, what she had at the time is making her depressed. We're going to she'll be fine by the time you visit her in a few months when you come back. So I went back in a few months and she was back to herself. In fact, she had a boyfriend named Wilbur. So I think she was better than ever. 

Rich Bennett 45:05
Wow. 

Deborah Heiser 45:06
So I said, That's it. I'm going to fix grandma's. That's going to be my job. And I pivoted and shifted gears. And so from a very young age, I started to work in the field of aging. Went to work at a psychiatric hospital for geriatric research and then started after I graduated with my degree, my Ph.D., I started a research institute within a nursing home in New York City, and did research on everything no one wants to have or get when they get older and then pivoted. 

Rich Bennett 45:40
Really? 

Deborah Heiser 45:40
What we have to look forward to after 40. So after 40. I've been doing this for decades. And this 

Rich Bennett 45:47
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 45:47
is something that, you know, I'm able to talk about both the good and the bad, but I try to focus on the good because that's really what we should be expecting. You should expect to be happier as you get older. You should expect to feel like you've left it like that. You have purpose and value and meaning and that the world is better because you're there. All of these are things that we should expect. And so I talk about all of that in the podcast and in my Substack blog and for Psychology Today. 

Rich Bennett 46:18
Please tell me you plan on writing a book about all that as well. 

Deborah Heiser 46:22
I may at some point, but a person can read 

Rich Bennett 46:25
I think. 

Deborah Heiser 46:25
what I write in Psychology Today. I write about that regularly and I do write about it in my substack called The Right Side of 40. 

Rich Bennett 46:36
Okay with that? I never heard of anybody about, you know, study in aging or maybe I have. They just said something different. But with that, do you find that as you get older, Whoops. As you get older, it's the I guess like your kids and grandkids that are worrying more about what's going to happen to you than you do. 

Deborah Heiser 47:03
That can happen. Yeah, it can happen. Yes. You know, if you have close relationships with people, that does shift where, you know, your one's caring for your kids and then they start to worry about you. Absolutely. You know, we brought my mother in law to live with us for ten years just because we worried about her. So, yeah, that can absolutely happen. 

Rich Bennett 47:28
And with your pockets in the study and evasion. I take it you talk a lot When? Maybe not a lot, but talk about like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and stuff like that. 

Deborah Heiser 47:38
Sometimes I will if somebody is an expert that can talk about that. I talk a lot about what people can expect in their living, you know, where they live. So I plan to have a conversation in January with somebody who's a community mobilizer, somebody who helps to calm that loneliness within the communities, 

Rich Bennett 48:01
Oh. 

Deborah Heiser 48:01
because a lot of we've moved from you know, it used to be that you people didn't age into their homes, but they would go to a facility and that was seen as very negative to go into, say, a nursing home. But what happened is you can be in your home and completely isolated from everyone. And you know, you may not be so you may be incredibly lonely in your own home. So there are things that and people talk about that because the people that are in their own home aren't talking to anybody. So getting the word out about things like that and making changes so that people can live to live optimally as long as they are living, which is a very long time. But where and how they want to live, We should be living with dignity and with grace. And we should never expect to be lonely, ever. We should start now with building those connections that we have and making sure that, you know, when I moved with my mother in law into and my my whole family, we looked for a house in an area where we knew that she would be able to have a senior center, where we knew that there would be people who were geriatricians and the hospitals. We actually chose our neighborhood based on where we could find resources for her. And I think most people don't do that, which I'm not judging in any way. I only did that because I'm in the field, you know? So I knew to look for that. And it's just educating people to say, Hey, if you're going to be downsizing, go someplace where you know that you're going to have resources for yourself, that you're not going to be isolated, things like that. 

Rich Bennett 49:40
See. And I thought just from the title after 40 podcasts, I thought maybe it was, I don't know, just talking, talking about your life after 41, I'm going to be doing. I didn't. 

Deborah Heiser 49:54
It is not. 

Rich Bennett 49:55
Talking about? 

Deborah Heiser 49:56
Yeah, a lot of it is that, 

Rich Bennett 49:57
Well, yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 49:58
you know, I'm after 40. I think about my life and what I want to be doing. And you know what you do after 40. Most people, it's after 60 that they're the ones who are becoming entrepreneurs. They're big entrepreneurs. 

Rich Bennett 50:12
That's true. 

Deborah Heiser 50:13
You should be thinking of all the things you've ever wanted to do in your life after 40. And that's the time you can do it, because you did what you had to do until you're 40. You get to do what you want to do after 40. 

Rich Bennett 50:27
Ooh, I like that. That's. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, I, I never thought I'd be doing this after 60, and I have a goal. I'm going to make it to 100. I'm still going to be podcast and. 

Deborah Heiser 50:42
Yeah. See, there you go. And that is combating loneliness. You are going to be connected 

Rich Bennett 50:47
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 50:47
to people. 

Rich Bennett 50:49
Well, you know, the funny thing is, with God, loneliness. It is so hard and I wish other organizations would go out to these homes or whatever, just go to people's houses if you know they're living alone. Knock on the door, take them something over. Eventually they may come out and talk to you. You never know, you know, but it just 

I hate seeing and I know there are some people I was mentioning my one mentor before 

and after his wife passed. He just became lonely, but he did not want to talk to anybody. He wouldn't even answer the phone or anything. And I felt so bad that I got What can I do? You know, it's like if flipped, it flipped. He was my mentor. Now I feel like I need to be doing whatever I can, but he wouldn't. He just he was lonely, you know? Honestly, he was very lonely. 

Deborah Heiser 51:55
We never prepared. We didn't have. When I first started to work in the field of aging, there was it was the Wild West. You know, there really was, you know, nothing out there for aging. It was that you got older and you went to a nursing home and that was where you lived. And there was granny dumping, you know, all this stuff. That was just a negative outlook. 

Rich Bennett 52:21
Yeah. 

Deborah Heiser 52:21
What happened was we started living longer and healthier. And so with that, the the boomers are really the driving force for the how we live in our as we age, because they're the ones who are saying, I don't want to live badly. So 

Rich Bennett 52:41
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 52:42
now there's been a movement where boomers are saying like, look, I'm going to do whatever I want to do and I'm going to live my life and I'm going to be me. And so now you have people playing pickleball. You have people doing all kinds of 

Rich Bennett 52:55
Oh, God. 

Deborah Heiser 52:56
amazing active things. And if you look online, I remember I was telling the Atlantic, which is, you know, they had a roundtable exhibit or roundtable gathering with people talking all the thought leaders in the area of aging. And I said, you have to make a change because the media is portraying older adults as frail and vulnerable and all the terrible things. If you look at the news and this was back in the early 2000s, if you look at the news, you only see negative things that are scary. And most people are not like getting beaten in their wheelchair, going down the street. That's just not reality. So they started to change it. And if you look up older man now, you will see people who are vibrant and, you know, healthier and doing things. And so it part of it was getting the media to change. And because people were feeling it, they just weren't seeing it anywhere and seeing, you know, people who are actresses. So Ellen Burstyn was in that group. She's an actress, and she was like, We need to see more older women in roles in film. And then, you know, I don't know, like five, ten years later, up comes probably ten years later, more even, maybe comes like the Netflix series with Jane Fonda in the Lily Tomlin, Grace and Frankie, which is to, you know, women who are older. And it was a hit show. I think it's still running. 

Rich Bennett 54:17
Right. 

Deborah Heiser 54:17
So it moved it from the Golden Girls. Who were. You know, like, who were J-Lo's age, but looked like they were like 400 years old. And they now have, you know, very vibrant older women who are being portrayed in films. So it gives people a different way of looking at their future. And that's the way that I want to look at aging is the way that the boomers have said, no, we are not tolerating this. And I'm right on that bandwagon of saying, Hey, I'm a Gen Xer, but I'm going to push that as far as I can because I also want to live how I want to live when I get older. 

Rich Bennett 54:58
Hmm. Oh, I never thought that after 60, I'd be dieting and exercising and again doing this. But I. I think I feel better. The last time I really felt this good 

was probably shortly after. I mean, besides the time in the Marine Corps. But shortly after I got out of the Marine Corps, maybe for another five or ten years, then the weight started coming on in my chest dropped and everything also. 

Oh, God. Debbie, is there anything you would like to add before I get to my last question? 

Deborah Heiser 55:40
No, I just, you know, look forward to your future and make it full of good connections with others. You can expect to be happier as you grow older. Being being older means that you're probably going to be mentoring and you're going to be enjoying your life. 

Rich Bennett 55:57
Yeah, you definitely got to write some more books. Definitely one on H and I think you should do it on quotes too. 

Deborah Heiser 56:03
Oh, I could do that. 

Rich Bennett 56:05
During this podcast. You've dropped a lot of great quotes. 

Deborah Heiser 56:09
Oh, really? Oh, cool. That's nice to hear. 

Rich Bennett 56:11
I believe so. 

Deborah Heiser 56:12
Cool. 

Rich Bennett 56:13
You also got to. 

Deborah Heiser 56:13
You're making feel. Making me feel great. 

Rich Bennett 56:15
That legacy tree. 

So. So what is the next big thing for Deborah Heizer? 

Deborah Heiser 56:26
I'm really trying to continue to make mentorship a movement, not just something that is within the Mentor project, but that everyone around the world can see. Mentorship is something they should be doing. So I'm looking for it to be a movement where we all engage in it, we all connect, and that we don't look at it as a way to exploit our employees to get more out of them. You know, to say, Hey, be a mentor. It's part of your, you know, work, it's part of your job. But to get people to understand the power and the impact, because I truly and honestly believe that with a movement like that, we're going to see explosive tech, We're going to see explosive amazing things in our world that will make us all live much happier, much more productive lives. 

Rich Bennett 57:13
I think you also would see mental illness on the decline. 

Deborah Heiser 57:17
You're right about that, because I think that people will see that mental illness is not something that you should be afraid of and that it's treatable if you have asthma. No one no one shames you for that. You get treatment just like you would for asthma. 

Rich Bennett 57:32
Exactly. Well, Debbie, I want to thank you so much. It's been a true pleasure. And I cannot wait to speak to you again. And I got an idea. I want to run by you when we're finished here. 

Deborah Heiser 57:42
Sure. 

Rich Bennett 57:43
Thank you so much. 

Deborah Heiser 57:44
Thank you. It's been a pleasure. 

Rich Bennett 57:47
Thank you for listening to the conversations with Rich Bennett. I hope you enjoy today's episode and learn something from it as I did. If you'd like to hear more conversations like this, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you have a moment, I'd love if you could leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and share more incredible stories. Don't forget to connect with us on social media or visit our website at conversations with Rich Bennett. Com for updates, giveaways and more. Until next time, take care. Be kind and keep the conversations going.